[RFC] HTML5 Semantic Elements

[callumacrae]

I'm all for a modern semantic HTML5 based thing. But not in phpBB 3.1.... Save it for phpBB 3.2, where we can simultaneously drop all support for IE8 and below, move on to jQuery 2.X and not have to worry at all about using HTML5 SHIV or Modernizr or any other bloat meant to keep old IE afloat. For sure, by the time 3.2 is ready, IE8 will be looooooong gone.

IE8 is an unsupported browser, so I'd say it's fine to drop support for it for 3.1.

[Pony99CA]

I'm all for a modern semantic HTML5 based thing. But not in phpBB 3.1.... Save it for phpBB 3.2, where we can simultaneously drop all support for IE8 and below, move on to jQuery 2.X and not have to worry at all about using HTML5 SHIV or Modernizr or any other bloat meant to keep old IE afloat. For sure, by the time 3.2 is ready, IE8 will be looooooong gone.

IE8 is an unsupported browser, so I'd say it's fine to drop support for it for 3.1.

Even some of your team members disagree. And it shouldn't be a matter of whether the browser is unsupported, but whether it's still widely used. Just because Microsoft decrees no support doesn't mean that people aren't still using it.

Steve

[callumacrae]

I'm all for a modern semantic HTML5 based thing. But not in phpBB 3.1.... Save it for phpBB 3.2, where we can simultaneously drop all support for IE8 and below, move on to jQuery 2.X and not have to worry at all about using HTML5 SHIV or Modernizr or any other bloat meant to keep old IE afloat. For sure, by the time 3.2 is ready, IE8 will be looooooong gone.

IE8 is an unsupported browser, so I'd say it's fine to drop support for it for 3.1.

Even some of your team members disagree. And it shouldn't be a matter of whether the browser is unsupported, but whether it's still widely used. Just because Microsoft decrees no support doesn't mean that people aren't still using it.

Steve

I'm all for including a polyfill, but I don't think it's right to say "let's just not do this because of IE8"!

Do you seriously think we should wait 12 years between features being introduced and actually being able to use them?

[DavidIQ]

IE8 is an unsupported browser, so I'd say it's fine to drop support for it for 3.1.

Are you sure? And in case you were wondering, since the note for IE8 says:

Releases known as Components follow the Support Lifecycle of their parent Major Product.

Extended support for Windows Vista ends 4/11/2017. Pretty far from being "unsupported" I would say.

[callumacrae]

Whoops, I thought IE8 was an XP thing

[brunoais]

I also think it's a good idea to apply this. They are standard and anything updated that reads a page rendered using these will know way better what it is than just divtities. prosilver already tries to follow it. I can see the topic list as it trying. We have those tags to help automated programs, we better just use them.
The shiv's will take care of years old outdated browsers.
Besides, the DOCTYPE says it: "This is HTML5, I'll follow HTML5's rules which say to use well defined meaningful tags according to the content within".

[Louis7777]

The shiv's will take care of years old outdated browsers.

Ok someone please tell me - why is the "shiv" needed? And why a simple document.createElement("nameOfElementHere"); won't do the job?

[Pony99CA]

Whoops, I thought IE8 was an XP thing

I think that IE 8 was the last browser supported on XP, hence the confusion. But apparently it is still supported on Vista.

Steve

P.S. I saw a note at work yesterday that we're upgrading from IE 8 to IE 10. I just had them do my machine today.

Why not IE 11? Who knows. When I started here in October 2007, they were still using IE 6 (no tabs!) and it took them a while to upgrade to IE 7. I was surprised that they jumped to IE 8 relatively quickly, but then they skipped IE 9 and IE 10 (at least until IE 11 came out).

[MattF]

Ok someone please tell me - why is the "shiv" needed? And why a simple document.createElement("nameOfElementHere"); won't do the job?

It won't be needed. Because phpBB 3.1 / Prosilver will not be re-written just for semantics. phpBB 3.1 is now in beta. Major changes like this are way past due for 3.1, but prime time for 3.2. And as I mentioned earlier, phpBB 3.2 can safely forget about IE8 and below, so there will be no need for any SHIV or Modernizr bloatware.

phpBB 3.1 focused on updating the PHP code...
phpBB 3.2 can (and should) focus on updating Prosilver, making it much more "modern" and built for the modern web. Dive in fully into HTML5 semantics, get into using LESS for the CSS, more AJAXification, convert the template syntax over to TWIG 100%, etc. Given the development timeline, IE8 will be very much a thing of the past by the time 3.2 is ready for alpha/beta. That makes 3.2 an ideal target for modernizing the HTML end of phpBB

[brunoais]

In that case, even better!
For 3.1 we (finally!) were able to get rid of that bloat of IE7 CSS.
I'm mixed about LESS. It has features I like to use and I think that are a great idea. It also has features that can easily bring it to something that becomes like reading a mesh if not used with care. I hope it is used well... If we go towards LESS, we better make some guidelines... I'm getting offtopic here.