Why? Please don't just say stuff like that. 10 years ago, you could have said that without justifying yourself. These days, everyone is carrying around smartphones that all support JavaScript.Arty wrote:JavaScript should not be used for design, that's what CSS is for. It should only be used to enhance functionality, but style must work properly without it.
Since when it became acceptable for software packages to rely on JS for styling? And not just for desktop, but for devices that often have JS disabled and have option to disable JS?callumacrae wrote:Why? Please don't just say stuff like that. 10 years ago, you could have said that without justifying yourself. These days, everyone is carrying around smartphones that all support JavaScript.
DavidIQ wrote:I don't think you've answered the question at all. I'm curious myself as well so I'll repeat: why is JavaScript necessary at all to make the style look correctly on mobile devices? Wouldn't it just be a matter of using proper CSS like everyone is suggesting?
Basically, to save development time. It isn't required, it just reduces the development time by a couple months.callumacrae wrote:All the decent mobile libraries and frameworks use it. Developing a mobile style from scratch and testing it fully would take months upon months, while the libraries and frameworks have already been tested.
I ignored it I don't think that it is true and I don't want to dispute it in this topic.DavidIQ wrote:You're also totally ignoring the fact that someone already said they disable JavaScript because it makes their phone's browser slow so it's not a matter of "outdated/unsupported" browsers here, although I'm not so sure this happens that often with the current day batch of mobile devices.
My device has a disable CSS button. I'm pretty sure multiple people will have said that about the use of CSS before.Arty wrote:Since when it became acceptable for software packages to rely on JS for styling? And not just for desktop, but for devices that often have JS disabled and have option to disable JS?callumacrae wrote:Why? Please don't just say stuff like that. 10 years ago, you could have said that without justifying yourself. These days, everyone is carrying around smartphones that all support JavaScript.
Well the phone that I got that it was doing it on is about 2 years old and I just got an updated model of that phone the other week. I don't know what app the old phone got but my new one got a version of NetFront™ Browser installed.DavidIQ wrote:I don't think you've answered the question at all. I'm curious myself as well so I'll repeat: why is JavaScript necessary at all to make the style look correctly on mobile devices? Wouldn't it just be a matter of using proper CSS like everyone is suggesting?
You're also totally ignoring the fact that someone already said they disable JavaScript because it makes their phone's browser slow so it's not a matter of "outdated/unsupported" browsers here, although I'm not so sure this happens that often with the current day batch of mobile devices.
When style developers make this argument I'm sorry but I have no sympathy. After years of development and who knows how many man-hours expended css is still extremely hard to use. The primitives are counter-intuitive (hello floats and negative margins), commonly wanted designs are impossible to achieve in generic ways (hello columns), there is zero modularity or tweakability (how many values do I have to change again to make the sidebar 10px wider?), each browser does everything differently and there is no solution in sight to any of these issues. I have to use preprocessors if I want something as simple as straightforward four-operation math, or trivial variable substitution. And good luck getting a designer to give you a stylesheet written in something like sass.callumacrae wrote: Basically, to save development time. It isn't required, it just reduces the development time by a couple months.
Big difference, if you disable CSS a site is still usable (assuming that the HTML is correctly structured). Build the UI in javascript and turn it off the site becomes useless.callumacrae wrote:My device has a disable CSS button. I'm pretty sure multiple people will have said that about the use of CSS before.Arty wrote:Since when it became acceptable for software packages to rely on JS for styling? And not just for desktop, but for devices that often have JS disabled and have option to disable JS?callumacrae wrote:Why? Please don't just say stuff like that. 10 years ago, you could have said that without justifying yourself. These days, everyone is carrying around smartphones that all support JavaScript.
That's bullshit argument. Point me to a modern forum software that doesn't work without JS. You might be surprised to find out that all of them work fine with JS disabled.callumacrae wrote:Sometimes, we have to move with everyone else. How many times have you seen people complaining that phpBB is years behind everything else? Maybe we should listen to them.
On the desktop, I can totally agree with you. On the mobile, I do not. Neither do any of the other forum softwares that provide mobile styles:Arty wrote:That's bullshit argument. Point me to a modern forum software that doesn't work without JS. You might be surprised to find out that all of them work fine with JS disabled.callumacrae wrote:Sometimes, we have to move with everyone else. How many times have you seen people complaining that phpBB is years behind everything else? Maybe we should listen to them.
JavaScript should be used only to enhance user experience. CSS should be used for styling. Period. I don't understand why you are even debating this.
Well actually those agree that you must support non-javascript, just tested this and I can navigate both just fine mobile with javascript turned off. The vB one only looks bad but the IPB one, looks and works great.callumacrae wrote:On the desktop, I can totally agree with you. On the mobile, I do not. Neither do any of the other forum softwares that provide mobile styles:Arty wrote:That's bullshit argument. Point me to a modern forum software that doesn't work without JS. You might be surprised to find out that all of them work fine with JS disabled.callumacrae wrote:Sometimes, we have to move with everyone else. How many times have you seen people complaining that phpBB is years behind everything else? Maybe we should listen to them.
JavaScript should be used only to enhance user experience. CSS should be used for styling. Period. I don't understand why you are even debating this.
Forum software mobile styles that require JS:
vBulletin
IPB
