WYSIWYG message board?

Discuss features as they are added to the new version. Give us your feedback. Don't post bug reports, feature requests, support questions or suggestions here.
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Discuss features as they are added to the new version. Give us your feedback. Don't post bug reports, feature requests, support questions or suggestions here. Feature requests are closed.
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birdfoot
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:30 pm

Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by birdfoot »

Guys, chill down abit k? :)

The implementation of a WYSIWYG editor has very little to do with HTML, CSS standards between the different browsers at all. The HTML tags used in WYSIWYG can be very standard and works across all browsers. The main issue would be that the script written for it may be incompatible for certain browsers, such as Safari, since JavaScripting methods may differ. This is solely a client side issue and doesn't really touch much on the backend; except that perhaps there needs to be a process of converting HTML tags, included in the message post, to their BBCode equivalents before storing into DB. As it's more of a JavaScript issue, I don't really consider it disruptive to any WC3 developments maybe except for the issue of DOM. Don't think it requires any of phpBB's core to be changed.

Anyway, what I wanna say are:

- Cross-browser issues have always been there for any web site/application that are built and they have always been addressed according to the browsers stated in the accessibility guidelines for which they are supported.

- If things do not work for a certain browser, they can always fallback gracefully to what works. If a browser doesn't support the WYSIWYG editor, then they must fallback to the standard editor and nothing is broken. So far, WYSIWYG is possible for most browsers.

- WYSIWYG really enhances usability especially for people using forums for the first time, as long as their browsers can support the scripts. Since it allows you to build an interface that closely resembles document publishing s/w, such as MS Word, people know how to use it by just looking at it. Compared to the current editor interface, there is some learning curve for those that are less Internet-savvy. WYSIWYG does provide extra control to someone who can't understand BBCodes, by providing simple ways to format their messages in a Rich Text editing fashion.

- If it can be done relatively without too much effort from the core work, it should be added since it'd be quite value-added for most users for phpBB. If there are people who can't use it because of browser issues, I don't see why to stop it from being implemented unless the numbers are great. Besides, users can't appreciate browser consistencies since they use only 1 browser most of the time. If a user appreciates the addition of WYSIWYG, it's an increase in appreciation for users who can use it and at the same time, for those that can't, it stays there (doesn't decrease since they can use what they've previously been using). Appreciation comes from the way they are able to use an application / site, not how well it's designed technically since they'd never know (unless technical issues cause things to break). From a BBS admin standpoint, the objective is to encourage people to use the forum and making it easier to use is a good way.

- Ultimately, WYSIWYG is not a very important feature and if it is too hard to develop or integrate with phpBB, it's better to leave out for now. The current BBCode system works fine since the tags do encapsulate the text that a user wants to format when they click the corresponding button, it helps to avoid alot of confusion compared to olders ones that don't encapsulate. So even if it isn't implemented, no harm's done.

- End of the day, it's for phpBB team to decide all the factors so there's really very little we can do. OR perhaps they think that this would be better released as a mod, just like a calendar.

Lastly, 2 thumbs up for a WYSIWYG. But if the phpBB team thinks it's not necessary or too much work for them, I also think it's reasonable. Just my thoughts. :)

SamG
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Posts: 1241
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:35 pm

Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by SamG »

birdfoot wrote: The implementation of a WYSIWYG editor has very little to do with HTML, CSS standards between the different browsers at all. ... As it's more of a JavaScript issue, I don't really consider it disruptive to any WC3 developments maybe except for the issue of DOM....
The DOM and its relationship to ECMAScript is the sole issue, I think, and obviously a significant one if we have a standards problem in those areas.

So, why even go down that road at this stage, when we could avoid it altogether? Why not do something like:

http://www.tecnick.com/public/code/cp_d ... jxhtmledit" target="_blank

instead?

CoreIssue
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Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:50 pm

Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by CoreIssue »

Birdfoot said a lot of key points very well. And to answer his key concerns from the aspect of HotEditor, which I am use to:
1. It adds to the core of 2.0.X with almost zero existing code change. And those changes are minute. Most is done by adding lines of code and new files.
2. It works on the most popular browsers.
3. It is user friendly.
4. And it vastly enhances posting capablities of users as I showed by example.

The editor SamG showed is not user friendly at all. And that counts a lot. And lacks smilies and such.

But if the point is the technology generating it if a user friendly one can be found with the missing functions and a user friendly functionality for the poster, fine.

All I can say at this point and in closing since I do not want to get on the bad side of Graham is that if there is no Rich Text Editor by core or mod my board and other boards using Rich Text are not going to be moving to Olympus because the posts in our DB require an editor to display the posts correctly.

Not to mention we have materials the Standard Editor is incapable of displaying.

Time will tell. The Developers do the work so they have every right to make the calls. And mod developers have every right to fill in gaps.

So we will see how it all turns out on this particular issue.

Later guys! :D

Hosting Geek
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Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:09 pm

Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by Hosting Geek »

Ok Ok Ok enough... why can't something semi-wysiwyg be done? Like what dragonflycms has done?

CoreIssue
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 9:50 pm

Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by CoreIssue »

Hosting Geek wrote: Ok Ok Ok enough... why can't something semi-wysiwyg be done? Like what dragonflycms has done?
Well, by a definition of semi-wysiwyg HotEditor is a semi-wysiwyg and is already a mod for phpBB 2.0.X.
If Elsinore had a home page, Hamlet would probably be asking "To WYSIWYG or not to WYSIWYG?" That is the question for many Web authors, and World Wide Web Weaver 2.02 ($89 from Miracle Software Inc.) answers by positioning itself in the middle, offering a "semi-WYSIWYG" solution. That is, the program gives access to HTML while showing italics, bold and header size, as well as differently colored text and tags.
And looking at the scripting of the mod I am guessing it would not be that hard for script writer to be able to transport it to Olympus.

Dragonfly offers fckeditor, html editor, spaw and tiny_mce.

I have no issues using fckeditor or tinymce except I like the folder smilies etc. system of HotEditor more. But both do offer more features overall than HotEditor.

But neither have been adapted for phpBB use.

Htmlarea and Spaw lack a smilies button, in example, and are not normal phpBB user friendly. Non starters.

So no problem with fckeditor or tinymce and phpBB already has a semi-wysiwyg editor mod. In fact the only such mod offered.

Hope that helps.

arod-1
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Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:33 pm

Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by arod-1 »

hoteditor is not gpl, so its irrelevant to this discussion.
htmleditor is somewhat complex, and will not be easily ported to work well with forum software.
if there is an open-source nice and light wysiwyg (or semi wysiwyg, or however you want to call it) editor, please show us.
otherwise, my guess is, the current dev team will most probably not start such a project at this time. they have too much on their plate as it is, with murky schedule and less-than-spectacular progress.

otoh, if there is one such editor, or any of the people reading wants to develop one, then the request will become that much more sensible: instead of "please give us wysiwig posting" it will become "please consider incorporating the following gpl piece as an option into the posting code".

imo, using java (as opposed to javascript) technology is not a good solution both from a technical and lisencing viewpoint. i dont want to get into another religious argument, but java is a poor choice for open-source project, and an applet is a poor choice for lightweight application.

other than that, there seems little point in arguing about browsers and stadnards.

to summerize: i think the wysiwyg proponents should either point to (or produce) a reasonable solution (in other words a reaolnable piece of code that does the work), or drop the subject.

SamG
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Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by SamG »

It's highly unlikely that the developers would adopt a third-party editor of any sort, regardless of GPL status. Finding an existing solution and using it in core phpBB isn't something likely to find its way to the table.

arod-1
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Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by arod-1 »

dunno what's your source of knowledge about the subject, but if you'll go over phpbb source, you'll find numerous "imported" pieces from various sources, including the javascript that currently supports the posting.
as to being a "third party": i am talking about a gpl lightweight piece that can be integrated in, not about a sealed package/jar file.

CoreIssue
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Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by CoreIssue »

I won't even attempt to speak for the developers.

So whether a 3rd party editor would be adopted would be totally up to them.

And looking at the editors out there the javascript ones appear to be superior to java.
to summerize: i think the wysiwyg proponents should either point to (or produce) a reasonable solution (in other words a reaolnable piece of code that does the work), or drop the subject.
I mostly agree.

My main point until it got off on the browser preference stuff was there is a demand for it, it is popular, other board systems are adopting it, even nuke, that phpbb based (please, no torpedoes on the quality of Nuke overall. I am aware of that), it is core in some form to all CMS and most portals, and so on.

Boiling it down it is not a novelty, but a superior tool to the Standard Editor.

As for ending the promotion at this point I agree because it has been said. What else can possibly be added to the discussion except a solution revealed!!

As for backing off totally in the future, I disagree.

It was said there is no outcry for wysiwyg. Have the opponents of wysiwyg ever thought that what I said before is the reason? People do not bring it up because they know there is no desire by some key people to have anything but the Standard Editor?

Good grief! On one blog by one scripter who has written a lot of excellent scripts he said he wished smilies were never added to phpBB. He hates them!

People have gone elsewhere because of the resistance to the editor. In reading on other systems sites I have seen numerous people who have switched because of there being no wysiwyg editor.

And I have posted examples of why there is frustration with the Standard Editor.

This is a much broader and bigger issue than with just phpBB. It is a growing issue.

Because the developers do the work it is their show and they call the shots. I will never ever question that absolute right.

Modders develop mods to do what they do not wish to do or did not conceive of in the past.

But being mod dependent for high use items is not good. We see branches in phpBB now where if you went branch A you could not use mods X, Y and Z. If you went branch B you could not... you get the picture.

Sorry for being preachy, but I believe I will not even look back into this topic to even be tempted to post again.

It has all been said.

If the knowledge that this is not some obscure and trivial issue is realized by many who thought it was or never thought about it before happens then something good came out of it.

The developers are doing great work. They are to be commended. I do appreciate them greatly.

As I do the modders.

Yeeesh! Enough babbling.

If you want to say something to me, please PM or email. Otherwise I won't see it.

SamG
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Re: WYSIWYG message board?

Post by SamG »

arod-1 wrote: dunno what's your source of knowledge about the subject, but if you'll go over phpbb source, you'll find numerous "imported" pieces from various sources, including the javascript that currently supports the posting.
as to being a "third party": i am talking about a gpl lightweight piece that can be integrated in, not about a sealed package/jar file.
I'm not talking about jars either. I'm talking about typical phpBB policy toward third party scripts. My source is the developers themselves.

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