Why not using Twitter Bootstrap?

[Arty]

Its good framework to quickly create simple websites, especially if you are not familiar with CSS, but its bad for forum styles because its not flexible and all markup is done by adding class names to HTML code. Same applies to all other frameworks.

[ekerazha]

and all markup is done by adding class names to HTML code

This is good, not bad. So it doesn't interfere with tags used by other templates (i.e. if you integrate the forum inside the main website layout).

[Arty]

No, for forum design its bad. For example, some page uses grid layout, so it uses .row4 and other similar classes. Style author wants to change layout, he's forced to change class names instead of just editing css entries.

Anything that forces predefined behavior is bad when software is supposed to be customizable.

[ekerazha]

That is inevitable if you want to use a plain CSS grid system. If you want a class-less grid system you have to use things like SASS or LESS. However, you can also use Bootstrap, Foundation etc. components without grids.

[ecwpa]

No, for forum design its bad. For example, some page uses grid layout, so it uses .row4 and other similar classes. Style author wants to change layout, he's forced to change class names instead of just editing css entries.

Anything that forces predefined behavior is bad when software is supposed to be customizable.

But there isn't any blank templates so lots of themes ended using subsilver's classes anyway.

[Arty]

The difference between subsilver/prosilver classes and those frameworks is subsilver/prosilver classes don't have predefined behavior, it is fully customizable. Classes in those frameworks are not.

[hanakin]

+ to utilizing a fraemworked approach to the theme at least for the development side of it but needs to be a framework that is tailored to the project as opposed to something a robust as bootstrap.

to further clarify what I mean by a framework.

+ consistant reset
+ commonly used base styles
+ simple to implement grid system
+ utilization of some sort of preprocessor for faster prototyping. aka. LESS/SASS

This is something I have been looking into for some time and have started putting work towards, but it is in the initial phases.

The big crux is that it would not work for a 3.1 release and probably not even work for prosilver as it would require a drastic overhaul and modernization on a larger scale so should be held off for a new theme for 4.0/3.0 jointly possibly to smooth the transition. I would venture to say that its not even something that should be developed for a release but rather along side and released via a custom theme to be included at a latter time.

[Frug]

I think we really really need 2 things:

1. A barebone theme
I can take subsilver apart and start creating a new style from it but there're still classes from subsilver inside the template files. Taking out files from it is also very tedious.

I would like to second this and bring some attention to it.

While I think the prosilver theme has its place, the size of it makes it tedious and inefficient as a base for theming. It's not a boilerplate but it's used as one. Everyone who starts needs to base their theme on something, and from the beginning of phpbb3 it's been prosilver (and I guess subsilver). But the result of this is that a lot of themes have cruft/bloat that is leftover - usually repeatedly over-ridden styles. Personally I don't find any use in separating colors from layout, for example (recently rounded corner images has become legacy code too). The first thing I did when making my theme was to spend hours cutting away.

Even artodia's excellent mobile style (which I use, because it is awesome) has parts I suspect would be cleaner if done from a real boilerplate. (forumlist headers are nested inside an unnecessary ul - I guess to recycle some css, but I cut it out on mine). Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that way, since everyone derives from prosilver.

I know that the community is free to create our own starter templates, so you can leave it to us to do it. My suggestion is to include one with the package in order to prevent all the user created styles out there from deriving from something more complicated than a boilerplate.

Then if people want to slap bootstrap on top of it, it's not such a big deal.

[MarkT2]

Bootstrap is great, but... isn't GPLv2 compatible

Bootstrap = Apache License v2.0 || phpBB = GNU GPLv2

FROM: http://blog.getbootstrap.com

Moving to MIT license
We've been looking to move to the MIT license for quite some time, and today's release takes us that much closer. Starting with v3.0.1, all new contributions to Bootstrap will be dual-licensed as Apache 2 and MIT. The intent is to move the entire project (including all prior contributions) to the MIT license in a future version (hopefully v3.1.0).

To make the change, every contributor to Bootstrap must consent to relicense their changes (since we have no CLA). We're making excellent progress on that front with the community's help and will address holdouts as they come up.

As a heads up, we've placed notices in the contributing guidelines and our project readme about the pending change and transition period.

It goes without saying that we don't need to do this, but we want to make Bootstrap available to all communities who cannot currently use it due to licensing conflicts. Theoretically these communities could change their licenses, but when you step back and objectively look at the situation, it's much easier for us to change. We hope you understand and stick it out with us as we make the move.