SHS', Why are Style/StyleMODding Discussions not allowed?

[leewells]

If I may, I just poped a post of my new style up. Us style artists need to know if there are any bugs in their styles as well, the same as phpBB does with beta =) And we need to do it the same way, let other users try it out and report bugs. I mean if you think about it, if we aren't allowed to let others test our styles out, check them over, then there will be a lot of work on release day =( . That sound anywhere near rational or am I going crazy?

Walk before running, start with your betas once phpBB3 is in RC... not before.

Hmmm so you are saying our betas are the equivalent to phpBB's RC?

Sorry had to edit:

Let me give ya a quick Open Source GNU/GPL class right quick. You see THAT is what has made phpBB what it is today, the open source GNU/GPL and the community that backs it because of the GNU/GPL.

By releasing software under the GPL then saying "Its wrong to collaborate on making skins and mods, is NOT the spirit of GPL, in fact it sounds like once something hits RC that its going to be proprietary.

The one thing you have NOT yet to answer is giving the "community" one GOOD reason why posting links and screenshots of Skins by persons wanting to share them so people who want to "try them" can download them and use them, is soooooooooo wrong? Mind telling us? Simply saying walk before you run is NOT an answer unless again you guys are planning on closing this code and making it proprietary.

I believe it has mentioned lots of times. During beta lots of things can change. So its just mopping with the watercrane still open ( in other words a bit ppointless). Sure you can post skins etc but not here. This is as the description of the fora says and i quote

All style (template, theme and imageset) related questions for the new release;
advice, feedback here please.

so what part of questions. advice and feedback does showing off belongs to? I believe none. So there for its boount to be locked. Unless you place a question of how can i place this there etc.

Then how come it isn't moved? Instead of just being closed perhaps they could open a thread to allow others to collaborate on it. Yes I understand things change in beta, duh, which is why people need a means of also being able to beta test their own mods styles etc with the changes of the software.

Firstly, I honestly don't think you can jump in here and immediatly start teaching the devs how they should do what they've been doing for 5 years.

And whos to say I haven't been doing the same for 5 years as well? I'm not telling them what to do with their software, my point is simple, telling people that they cannot collaborate on a community board about community issues wreaks of a plan to proprietorize the software.

forum rules state pretty clearly what's allowed and what's not

I'm sorry I did not see where it says you cannot ask for others to help you test out your installs and tweaks to phpbb. Did I miss that? Can you post a link please?

- it will be completely pointless because there are already way too many changes in cvs.
- noone sane is running beta 5 in live enviroment, so noone really cares about what style is used on their test forum as noone other than owner of that test forum sees it.

Yes and none of the changes have nothing "big" to do with the styles. I think even someone said the main thing that is being done is kicking out security issues and fine tweaks.

Also are you saying that the admin of this board is insane? Because it appears to be the B5 code.

[Handyman]

Let me give ya a quick Open Source GNU/GPL class right quick.

Yay, GPL! What does it have to do with this topic? Absolutely nothing. GPL doesn't allow you to spam forum with junk that will only cause problems for other users and will be obsolete within a week after you release it. Don't confuse software license with website.

Lets see what would happen if you would release a style for beta 5 right now:
- it will be completely pointless because there are already way too many changes in cvs.
- noone sane is running beta 5 in live enviroment, so noone really cares about what style is used on their test forum as noone other than owner of that test forum sees it.
- there is a bug in your style. someone uploads that style on his beta 5 forum, sees a bug, posts it on phpbb.com bug tracker and forgets to mention he's using your style (usually because he thinks its a phpbb bug, not your style's bug). devs spend few hours trying to find/fix that bug while they could be fixing real bugs.

So how much good would a style release do right now?

I guess I'm insane then… since "Nobody Sane is running Beta 5 in a live environment".
I used phpBB3 live when it was in Alpha… the purpose behind my board, back then, was to find bugs and report them… so I was keeping the forum updated daily… now I'm running Beta 5.
Personally, when RC1 comes out, I'm not going to need support, but I have seen a ton of people try and run phpBB3 live and screw up their boards… and have to re-install them from scratch anyways.
That's why it's not a good idea to run it live… and they wouldn't know the first thing about upgrading… so they would need support.

These people also try and run mods that are in development… which creates a lot of problems… which is why mods aren't supported at this time.

phpBB scrutinizes every single mods that gets into their database to make sure its stable and works as expected with their forum software so that every user has a safe/secure experience installing Mods.

If you look at other OpenSource softwares out there, they don't go through the mod approval method like phpbb does… and they have a lot of junk in their mod database… and I'm talking thousands of mods… and most of them junk because they are just cheap hacks that should be mods.

so phpBB came up with a good plan to work with the mod community for phpBB3… as stated in a few of these other posts.
Since they can't keep re-evaluating mods every time they release a new Beta… at that rate, we would never make it to RC1.

[leewells]

These people also try and run mods that are in development… which creates a lot of problems… which is why mods aren't supported at this time.

phpBB scrutinizes every single mods that gets into their database to make sure its stable and works as expected with their forum software so that every user has a safe/secure experience installing Mods.

Aye, it can mess things up, I hear ya there. But I would think skins are a bit different. If someone is modding the default skin (subSilver) then yeah, trash it, but an entirely new skin in which if it is hosed, let the user switch back to the default, I do not see the problem with it, and really these guys styling need to have a few good styles ready and stable before RC release day.

[Rotsblok]

These people also try and run mods that are in development… which creates a lot of problems… which is why mods aren't supported at this time.

phpBB scrutinizes every single mods that gets into their database to make sure its stable and works as expected with their forum software so that every user has a safe/secure experience installing Mods.

Aye, it can mess things up, I hear ya there. But I would think skins are a bit different. If someone is modding the default skin (subSilver) then yeah, trash it, but an entirely new skin in which if it is hosed, let the user switch back to the default, I do not see the problem with it, and really these guys styling need to have a few good styles ready and stable before RC release day.

Why are skins different. The template system of phpBB3 is by far more enhanced. And why do they have to have some skins ready when it hits RC1??? There arent offical mods ready when it hits RC1 so why should there be skins. RC1 is for fine tuning with custom skins the fine tuning might be a bit dubious cos who will tell if the bug that occurs on a custom skin is a bug on the default standard skin??? There for the dev team and the phpBB team in general have decided not to allow custom skins until RC1. IF RC1 is offical then you can post your skin. And as stated before there are a lot of morons out there that doesnt understand one thing and cos bezerk on all the mods and custom skins and the board freezes or fails then they go complaining at the phpBB support team that its faulty. So theres another reason why custom skinning isnt allowed yet. I guess also that offering your skin to the skinning department of phpBB and validating it will take time. So when it hits RC2 youre skin will prob be validated.

[leewells]

lol, I don't care if it is validated or not. Yes there is a HUGE difference between mods and skins. Usually mods mess with the source and core elements, whereas a THEME does not, it is a complete independent "add-on" and at the current there is no way it can screw up any source code (or important) files unless someone is a moron and copies the theme to the subSilver folder. So that means if you upload the skin/theme/style and it doesn't work, simply remove it or deactivate it. Its flawless, where as a mod, once it is installed, it is very hard for the DeV team to track bugs when half of their code has been modified.

So yet again, negating said reasons for not allowing collaboration on styling, it leads me to heavily suspect that the phpBB Group is going to proprietorize the software which will severely disappoint me being I have been a 3 year monetary contributer to the project. Look at it this way, When phpBB 2 and phpBB 1 was in beta 4+ skinning WAS supported by the phpBB Group, now it is frowned upon.

[Acyd Burn]

bla bla bla... face it. We do not allow style/mod discussions at this stage. We also do not allow spamming forum links or spamming links to beta installations. You may do this whereever you want, but not here, at area51 or at the phpbb.com site. These are our rules we set for the forum we operate. This only has to do with the software in the regard of it's topic.

The reasons why we enforced these rules are numerous, most of them noted here. We simply do not want other people to install modifications or skins at beta stage; firstly to be able to get reports on vanilla test installations (and this includes reports for the delivered style which is not possible if another style is used, or a modified one) and secondly because support is not given and people will always get it the wrong way.

Once RC1 is reached we will give support at the main site. But this does not mean it is then allowed here. Area51 is a development playground for us and will most likely about 3.2.x after 3.0.x got released. And even at the main site you will not be allowed to just post the link to your forum just away, though of course showing what you achived with olympus. There is always a thin line between "advertising" and "giving something to the community".

How we organize the forums still needs to be decided, but i do not think we will open up the submission of mods and styles with RC1. This will happen once phpBB3 is gold most likely. BTW, if you discuss your style the community is expecting it to be submitted for validation once finished.

Now, please refrain from bringing your "arguments" to the table; if they are valid or not does not matter, since this is not a democracy, no forum is a place for free speech - the rules are defined by those who run it. And this has nothing to do with the software.

Sorry if this is a bit harsh, but i think it needs to be in this tone so you get it. Please post your style at another forum, perfectly valid and allowed (there are some live phpBB3 installations covering mods and styles).

[leewells]

bla bla bla... face it. We do not allow style/mod discussions at this stage. We also do not allow spamming forum links or spamming links to beta installations. You may do this whereever you want, but not here, at area51 or at the phpbb.com site. These are our rules we set for the forum we operate. This only has to do with the software in the regard of it's topic.

Who spammed links? I opened a topic and said I had a subBlack like skin, had a screenshot posted and asked any whom wanted to download it (direct link to download) and test-drive it. Now, how does that remotely define itself as spamming? Better yet how does it even imply advertising? If anything it WAS a contribution to the community as many on many people has asked for another style besides the default subSilver, which in my opinion has worn itself out.

The reasons why we enforced these rules are numerous, most of them noted here. We simply do not want other people to install modifications or skins at beta stage; firstly to be able to get reports on vanilla test installations (and this includes reports for the delivered style which is not possible if another style is used, or a modified one) and secondly because support is not given and people will always get it the wrong way.

Can I get a link to those rules please?

Once RC1 is reached we will give support at the main site. But this does not mean it is then allowed here. Area51 is a development playground for us and will most likely about 3.2.x after 3.0.x got released. And even at the main site you will not be allowed to just post the link to your forum just away, though of course showing what you achived with olympus. There is always a thin line between "advertising" and "giving something to the community".

Perhaps the restrictions of discussions should be applied on the support end to give your designers and developers more freedom?

How we organize the forums still needs to be decided, but i do not think we will open up the submission of mods and styles with RC1. This will happen once phpBB3 is gold most likely. BTW, if you discuss your style the community is expecting it to be submitted for validation once finished.

I'm not worried about a validation process, my concern is 100% why the "community" is now restricted for discussions of styling and helping each other thereof.

Now, please refrain from bringing your "arguments" to the table; if they are valid or not does not matter, since this is not a democracy, no forum is a place for free speech - the rules are defined by those who run it. And this has nothing to do with the software.

Ummm... Who said anything about Free Speach? My argument has 2 points. First how is it benefiting the community by not allowing stylers to collaborate and secondly, the restriction thereof is an indication of proprietartizing the software. And by the way, I didn't see any clear confirmation that it would NOT be done yet.

Sorry if this is a bit harsh, but i think it needs to be in this tone so you get it. Please post your style at another forum, perfectly valid and allowed (there are some live phpBB3 installations covering mods and styles).

But you cannot link to them? I was in the US Army for 31 years, I don't care if its harsh or not.

[Nicholas the Italian]

If anything it WAS a contribution to the community as many on many people has asked for another style besides the default subSilver, which in my opinion has worn itself out.

A new official style will be released along with phpBB 3.0.0, and designers are invited to build their own upon it. Developing styles before the official one is announced is discouraged. Posting them here is prohibited.

Can I get a link to those rules please?

Don't know whether this is explicitly stated somewhere or not. But this is how things always went, just look at other topics that were closed or where this was discussed.
This is the policy of the group, like it or not. And this is not a free chat forum. No problem if you didn't understand it sooner, but now you know it, so just take it.

I'm not worried about a validation process, my concern is 100% why the "community" is now restricted for discussions of styling and helping each other thereof.

This has already been explained. If you don't agree, well, you're free to have your opinion and admins/devs are free to have theirs.

the restriction thereof is an indication of proprietartizing the software. And by the way, I didn't see any clear confirmation that it would NOT be done yet.

The confirmation that it's not going to be done has been given many times in the past. Search.
Open source and freeware do not imply open development or open discussion in the community forum. This is their product. These are their rules. If you don't like them, here you go.

I was in the US Army for 31 years, I don't care if its harsh or not.

Your profile says you're 39, so you've been in the army since you were 8?

[3Di]

If anything it WAS a contribution to the community as many on many people has asked for another style besides the default subSilver, which in my opinion has worn itself out.

A new official style will be released along with phpBB 3.0.0, and designers are invited to build their own upon it. Developing styles before the official one is announced is discouraged. Posting them here is prohibited.

Can I get a link to those rules please?

Don't know whether this is explicitly stated somewhere or not. But this is how things always went, just look at other topics that were closed or where this was discussed.
This is the policy of the group, like it or not. And this is not a free chat forum. No problem if you didn't understand it sooner, but now you know it, so just take it.

I'm not worried about a validation process, my concern is 100% why the "community" is now restricted for discussions of styling and helping each other thereof.

This has already been explained. If you don't agree, well, you're free to have your opinion and admins/devs are free to have theirs.

the restriction thereof is an indication of proprietartizing the software. And by the way, I didn't see any clear confirmation that it would NOT be done yet.

The confirmation that it's not going to be done has been given many times in the past. Search.
Open source and freeware do not imply open development or open discussion in the community forum. This is their product. These are their rules. If you don't like them, here you go.

I was in the US Army for 31 years, I don't care if its harsh or not.

Your profile says you're 39, so you've been in the army since you were 8?

Don't back seat Moderating. Also, no flames are allowed.

[Handyman]

Back seat moderating? was there anything wrong with what he said?