Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

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Discuss features as they are added to the new version. Give us your feedback. Don't post bug reports, feature requests, support questions or suggestions here. Feature requests are closed.
Kokuei
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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by Kokuei » Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:21 pm

dhn wrote: You misunderstood my popup idea. You create the table bbcodes: table, th, tr, th, td. You then write (or ask someone to write - it is not difficult) some javascript that you can simply put into the templates as a button. Now, when you click the button, a javascript popup asks you the number of rows and columns that you want your table to have. It will then create all tags automatically for you, and all you need to do is to enter the data. If you want to make this more userfriendly, javascript gives you all the freedoms in the word (as long as they are supported by Microsoft :))

Well, i read as far as "popup". Then my brain just screamd "Noo!". :D

Wert
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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by Wert » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:19 pm

I don't consider tables a "basic feature". Until now, I've never seen anyone ask for it and the dozens of forums I've frequented have never seen a need to offer it up (via mod or whatever).

Sounds like you'll need to wait for bbcode functionality to catch up, or use other hackish means if it's something you personally must have.
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code reader
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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by code reader » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:40 pm

Kokuei wrote: but what would be the point? The function of BBCode is to enhance the usability and speed up the creating of posts. Hence minimizing the need for excess tags.
i don't believe you get the point of bbcodes.
bbcodes do not enhance any usability. adding to a post is no easier, faster or "more usable" than adding a <b>, and the same apply to most other bbcodes
(true, in olympus, text decorations implemented by <span>'s, but the same logic of "why use bbcodes" apply to phpbb2 where the simpler, deprecated <u>,<b>,<i> tags are used).

the idea of bbcodes is that of safety: by eliminating any direct html, we think that our boards are relatively safe from a wide variety of possible exploits. the bbcodes are there to stand for the small subset of tags we decide to support.
it is a trivial truism that white-listing is inherently safer than black-listing. by avoiding all tags and then supporting a small subset, we think our boards are safer, and with bbcodes we believe we have full control of the html that will be generated.

there are some exceptions, for instance, the "quote" bbcode is parsed into less-than-trivial piece of html, using nested <div>'s, classes which are defined elsewhere etc.; but in general, the bbcodes are not much simpler or more "usable" than the html they represent.

so the answer to your question "what would be the point", the obvious answer is: the point is that custom bbcodes will allow you to enable tables in posts, just like the bbcode enables underlined text.

i am not familiar with the mod you mention, but from your post it seems that its main attraction is that it saves you the need to close the [row] and [col] tags. i can't see this as a good enough reason to want a mod instead of using custom bbcodes.

if anyone wants to add tables, the right way of doing it is with custom bbcodes. of course, you can decide how to implement it exactly. (for instance: personally, i am not sure i would add the table-heading tag, but i think it may be a good idea to support colspan, with a "cols=" tag).

Kokuei
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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by Kokuei » Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:53 pm

code reader wrote: i don't believe you get the point of bbcodes.
bbcodes do not enhance any usability. adding to a post is no easier, faster or "more usable" than adding a <b>, and the same apply to most other bbcodes
(true, in olympus, text decorations implemented by <span>'s, but the same logic of "why use bbcodes" apply to phpbb2 where the simpler, deprecated <u>,<b>,<i> tags are used).

You misunderstand what i wrote - it's more basic, [url] are all enhancements of posting (otherwise we would just have plain text an no more). And Custom BBCode is really just a set of ways to format text/information. Like header 1, header 2, plain text, and so on.

As you say, it's also a way to make the forums more safe. Otherwise the same feature could be done with html.

code reader wrote:
so the answer to your question "what would be the point", the obvious answer is: the point is that custom bbcodes will allow you to enable tables in posts, just like the bbcode enables underlined text.

You are getting closer to my point, there should/have to be a better way to do it.

code reader wrote:
i am not familiar with the mod you mention, but from your post it seems that its main attraction is that it saves you the need to close the [row] and [col] tags. i can't see this as a good enough reason to want a mod instead of using custom bbcodes.

You obviously have never used tables much in you'r posting :) , the html vay of making tables is ment for creating static content (or generated by some script). Not to use in live posting.


Perhaps you are right that the "right" way of doing it is with Custom BBCode, but personally I would hope for the TableBBCode mod/hack (or simmilar) and go with the more userfriendly (but perhaps less advanced) choice.

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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by MKruer » Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:02 am

For the most part adding these custom BBCodes work just fine for simple no frill's tables
The trick is you have to know how to use them and what they mean and unfortunately there are only two type of people when it comes to using table. People who love them and know how to use them, and then the other who think that tables a evil and worthless. Some type of easy JavaScript interface with be welcomed by most people for this. OR just use an HTML editor and when done replace all the <> with [].

[table]{TEXT}[/table]
<table>{TEXT}</table>

[td]{TEXT}[/td]
<td>{TEXT}</td>

[tr]{TEXT}[/tr]
<tr>{TEXT}</tr>

The only thing that I have not figured out is how to add complex variables to BBCodes.

Table variables

[table] variables
width="{TEXT}"
height="{TEXT}"
border="{NUMBER}"
bgcolor="{TEXT}"
cellpadding="{NUMBER}"
cellspacing="{NUMBER}"
bordercolor="{TEXT}"

[td] variables
align="{TEXT}"
colspan="{NUMBER}"
bgcolor="{TEXT}"
valign="{TEXT}"
rowspan="{NUMBER}"
bordercolor="{TEXT}"
width="{TEXT}"
height="{TEXT}"

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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by Eelke » Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:37 pm

Kokuei wrote: You obviously have never used tables much in you'r posting

Nor has probably the majority of the rest of us. You seem to think that code reader's assessment is rather naive, so why don't you explain what he's missing?

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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by Kokuei » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:36 am

Eelke wrote: Nor has probably the majority of the rest of us. You seem to think that code reader's assessment is rather naive, so why don't you explain what he's missing?
No, im not saying it's naive, alot of users will never use or have the need for tables. But still i think there are quite some people that would like a table-option in BBCode, when its a feature in every other word-processor software with any ability of text formating it cant be wrong. I get alot of arguments against table BBCode here by people not using it, that is why i question their opinion (wich i think i only natrual). I would really like to find someone that uses html/bbcode-based tables to argue against me. My argument is based on 2 things really.
  • • Tables is a really useful and basic tool in writing.
    • The HTML syntax of making tables is not really a good way to write tables "on the fly" (this you can't really know unless you have used it quite alot)

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Eelke
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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by Eelke » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:03 pm

Well, I've completely read the thread, and it doesn't get much clearer. Apparently, there is some huge advantage to not needing to close row and column tags, and that's what I meant. Is it really impossible to try and put in words what this advantage is? It seems the answer that's been given multiple times is "you need to use it to realize just how great it is".

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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by Kokuei » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:44 pm

Eelke wrote: Well, I've completely read the thread, and it doesn't get much clearer. Apparently, there is some huge advantage to not needing to close row and column tags, and that's what I meant. Is it really impossible to try and put in words what this advantage is? It seems the answer that's been given multiple times is "you need to use it to realize just how great it is".

Well, you could put it in that way. If you have to put it into one line you can say that; BBCode needs a simpler & faster way to create tables. A GUI might be it, but i rather doubt that in a web based software.

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Re: Custom BBCode - still missing a basic feature, tables.

Post by Uchiha Nick » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:29 pm

  • woot!
    • wootz0rt
meh, just playing around a bit.. anyway, most people who visit forums are people who don't have even the slightest idea what a table is. much less what html is or means. so, majority is against. aside from that, people will start to screw up, because they do not know how tables work. now, you could say I am among those who think tables are the seed of satan, but then again..

what where tables meant to do?
tabulair data, they where meant to display tabulair data. not that this is significant in this topic, but it kills your argument of 'some think it's evil', no we do not think it's evil; we just know what it is for.

and yes, if you hint on the table-like feature of MS WORD, it could[/b] be usefull. I still wouldn't want to use it on my board though, since the only 'correct' tables people can come up with are WYSIWYG tables. meaning, they can drag the tables out.

do what you want with this ranting if you will, but do understand tables aren't to be used for just about anything.

but, as someone suggested, you can of course make them through the custom bbcode, though that'll guarantee to not work.

[table]
[td]
[tr]w00t! a column :D[/tr
[th]this.. coold :D[/th]
[/td]
[/table]

do note that I put the [/tr there on purpose. people will forget this anyway, but the other ones will be parsed. meaning the page will get screwed up. and then the tag mixing, that will obviously happen. I among others really do not see this working..
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