Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

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Discuss features as they are added to the new version. Give us your feedback. Don't post bug reports, feature requests, support questions or suggestions here. Feature requests are closed.
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Klors
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:08 pm

Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by Klors »

Superdeboer wrote: @Klors:
Firstly I have to thank you for your patience in responding. ;)
No problem, you too, always nice to have a discussion for more than 2 posts that doesn't descend into "well you're just a poo-head" kind of arguments.
Superdeboer wrote:
Mvastango wrote:The fact that it's daylight savings does have relevance. If I live in an area that observes DST, and it's currently the summer now, for all posts made in the winter, the time will be show to have been posted 1 hour off from the time they were actually posted. This is because my current GMT-Offset is applied to all posts uniformly, regardless of whether they were made in or out of DST.
/me applauds for Mvastango. You really see my problem dude. :)

The problem is not the difference between timezones or the difference between GMT and my timezone. The problem is the difference between summer and winter, because in summer we have DST, so *on top of all timezone things* there comes one hour extra to get to the real and correct time.
...
All you are doing when you go to daylight savings time is changing timezone, why would it be any different.
In my opinion you don't. Going to DST means for me continuing to use the same timezone, but adding an extra hour to it, *only in the summer*. As long as you base your time displaying on GMT, wich does not add that extra hour only in summer (it wouldn't be possible, because it differs from country to country), you will never have the effect that I'm aiming at. Unless you do some calculations that use custom information about when DST takes effect and stuff.
I feel this may be the crux of our difference of opinion.

I live in the UK, we work on GMT for half of the year and we have a daylight savings time called British Summer Time. BST is a different timezone to GMT, it's GMT+1. Which is a different timezone to the Central European Time which is also GMT+1 i believe.

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-z ... /index.htm
In case I lack credibility. And they seem to list our standard time as Western European Time/GMT jointly. As well as UTC.

I'm pretty certain that most of the USA's timezones work in the same way, too (I think there might be a State that doesn't). EST (Eastern Standard Time) = GMT-5, EDT (Eastern Daylight Time) = GMT-4... same goes for Central, Mountain and Pacific, afaik.

I'd show the Unix timestamp on my board but then noone would understand it. :)

So, hence the reason I just see them all as different timezones. I've played online games with friends from the USA, UK and Continental Europe for a few years now so I've grown used to timezone thinking. It's so important to get it exact for us to avoid missing each other by hours that I don't really like wooly-thinking where time is concerned :)
Superdeboer wrote:I'll try to figure out what I can create for myself. Then I'll try to tune it to make it as universally useful as possible. When it's done, I'll post it somewhere as a MOD. I hope you'll be there to criticise it at that time. ;) Maybe I can persuade you when you see it fully functioning. :)
But like I said in my early posts: when you're running a board with users from different timezones, it's clear to see that my problem is a minor one for you and it's more important for you to give the users the ability to set at least their different timezones correctly. In that case my problem is not your problem and you won't profit from the thing I'm planning to write. :)
I wish you luck and good fortune. I do run an internationally used board, yes. So, no, I probably wouldn't use it. :)
Superdeboer
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Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by Superdeboer »

Klors wrote:I feel this may be the crux of our difference of opinion.

I live in the UK, we work on GMT for half of the year and we have a daylight savings time called British Summer Time. BST is a different timezone to GMT, it's GMT+1. Which is a different timezone to the Central European Time which is also GMT+1 i believe.
This *is* indeed the crux. In my opinion the timezones like "GMT+n" are inevitably bound to their geographical borders on the globe. For me it is not correct when you say that BST is GMT+1, because I live in Holland and I really do live in the timezone GMT+1. In that respect it's odd, because you won't change your geographical location when going to DST. ;)

For me, your BST is GMT+1 hour DST, which is not the same as GMT+1. Why not? Because for me our Central European Time is GMT+1. Because you do not live in Central Europe, so you can never be in the timezone GMT+1 as long as your location is on that Big Isle on the other side of the Canal. ;)
You see, when you have BST, we do also have DST here in Europe. It is my conception that although we proceed to DST, we still remain in the timezone GMT+1. At the same moment you have BST, in my opinion we on the continent live in GMT+1 plus 1 hour for DST, whereas you live in GMT plus 1 hour for DST, which is not the same as GMT+1, because than you would have to be in Europe.

So we can determine this difference in conception:
I see the timezones as bound to their geographical borders during non-DST.

You see timezones as 'just a way' to adjust to the exact time of the country where you are at that very moment.

As you say, undoubtedly your vision has been arisen because of your international contacts. For you it's more important to be able to use time in a flexible way, just *because* your contacts from all over the world do use other timezones, some of them with DST, some of them without. My vision is based on the fact that I'm running a board with exclusively Dutch users. You say you don't like wooly-thinking where time is concerned, whereas I feel that your way of thinking is wooly-thinking. :mrgreen:
I think the main issue here is that we have very different applications for our phpBB boards. We will not encounter the same problems, as long as that doesn't change. As long as I run a national board, I won't really need the timezone thing; in fact, it's of no use for me at all. As long as you run an international board, you will care more for the timezones than for DST. None of us can change that. But knowing that I'm probably not the only one that doesn't own a board with an international community, I still feel that creating a solution for my problem will benefit a lot of people. :)

Thanks again for responding. I think this topic can now be archived as a milestone of philosophising about time and timezones. I guess it's another proof that everything is relative. :P 8)
SamG
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Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by SamG »

While time is most certainly relative, how time is expressed has been standardized, I think.

My current time zone, expressed in a standardized way, is:

"Local Standard Time - UTC= -4:00"

But my "normal" non-DST time zone is in fact UTC= -5:00, so in a few months, my standardized time will be:

"Local Standard Time - UTC= -5:00"

My time zone will in fact change over the course of a year to reflect the application and removal of the DST offset. So as I see it, this isn't a discussion of perceptions about time, but of using recognized conventions (as phpBB does now) versus using a user preference. It still seems natural to me that phpBB follows standard time conventions. But again, this is just my opinion - not perception, but opinion. :)
"I hate trolls!" - Willow Ufgood
deletor100
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Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by deletor100 »

Superdeboer, your are perfectly right!!
Adding this feature for "national-boards" would be great!!
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CodeBuster
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Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by CodeBuster »

granted.. the problem exists but I think just adding an extra hour to post times in DST is a bit short sighted.. why not

Code: Select all

if DST and date('month',$posttime) > april  or  <  august
then
$posttime = $postttime + GMT + 1 hour
else
$posttime = $postttime + GMT
ya. ok.. I forgot to look in my PHP Bible.. so sue me.. :mrgreen:
but implementing something like that would probably fix the entire problem
and would only show the increased hour in the active time period it should be

Only problem is.. Europe and US start at a different date with DST :x
place witty phrase here
Mvastango
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Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by Mvastango »

If this were to be implimented, it would most likely have to store data for each region in either an array, or in the database, and then load the correct data based on the user's settings.
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CodeBuster
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Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by CodeBuster »

Mvastango wrote:If this were to be implimented, it would most likely have to store data for each region in either an array, or in the database, and then load the correct data based on the user's settings.
but then it would be fully automatic.. actually, the data is stored in the GMT setting which is set by the user.. activation of DST is also something that the users themselves can set.. maybe a nice pop-up as reminder??

You would not ony be looking at a region, but also at individual countries in that region.. I mean.. West Central Africa surely doesn't use DST but is in the same timezone as I am, and for the longest time in Europe alone it was chaos where some countries did and others not.. and then they switched.. lol
place witty phrase here
Mvastango
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Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by Mvastango »

What do you mean, "It wouldn't be fully automatic"? I meant region as in country/state/locale. The data associated with that country/state/locale would dictate whether or not it had DST and if so, when it starts/ends.
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CodeBuster
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Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by CodeBuster »

oi.. I said.. but then it would be fully automatic..

so yes.. you are right, and I agree..

I was more thinking in the line of.. okay, but how do you keep track of that? Recently we had a lot of changes concerning countries and borders and who lives where.. so I was opting for a more manual solution here
place witty phrase here
Mvastango
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Re: Daylight Saving Time (DST) within one country

Post by Mvastango »

Well it's pretty easy to keep track of... the user just specifies their location from a drop-down in the UCP. The location id or whatever would be stored in the users table, and linked up to a listing of locations and their time zone info.
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