Why not create a forum for CVS users?

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Discussion of general topics related to the new release and its place in the world. Don't discuss new features, report bugs, ask for support, et cetera. Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
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rickross
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Why not create a forum for CVS users?

Post by rickross »

I have read the forum rules, and I completely understand the ramifications of using a CVS version of an application in active development.

Still, I have to think it would be positive for phpBB3 if there was a forum in which it was reasonable and permitted to discuss issues related to the large number of changes in the CVS edition of the code? Why not just make a single forum where those who wish to live on the edge can gather, discuss issues, and hopefully be able to contribute to the quality assurance process that we all want to precede the actual phpBB3 release?

It would be so simple to do, and the truth is that all the terse "no support for CVS" messages make it seem like there's less real community here than I know there really is. Instead, those could be "Please post such topics ONLY in the proper forum."

Nothing is achieved by forcing CVS version users to exist in total isolation due to a stringent "no support" policy. Don't call it support, just nudge them to a place that is created specifically for questions and issues related to the latest CVS editions. What is there to lose?
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Kevin Clark
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Re: Why not create a forum for CVS users?

Post by Kevin Clark »

I suspect that it's because you will get a lot of people who are not CVS savvy doing it too. They won't be able to help themselves. These are the same people you see using the betas live.
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SamG
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Re: Why not create a forum for CVS users?

Post by SamG »

I also think that this amounts to expansion of the development process and/or development team, as the suggested interaction would be meaningful only in the context of development. Whether that's a bad (or good) thing, I can't say, but it would be a departure.

My own preference (FWIW) would be for the phpBB community to build a generally recognized technical reference resource. In the past we've talked about wikis and such, and if the community would centralize on a third-party phpBB geekdom, that would allow the finite resources of the official phpBB teams and websites to stay focused on broad community interests and needs—without having to do battle with the problems Kevin legitimately noted.
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rickross
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Re: Why not create a forum for CVS users?

Post by rickross »

Kevin Clark wrote: I suspect that it's because you will get a lot of people who are not CVS savvy doing it too. They won't be able to help themselves. These are the same people you see using the betas live.


You may be right, Kevin, so it may be necessary to have some rules even in a CVS-specific forum. There are obviously more appropriate places for people to get help with how to download, build and use CVS itself. Still, there's much to be gained from having people discuss, share knowledge, and provide feedback on code which has been checked in since the last beta.

Seriously, we are talking many moons since the last beta, and a LOT of code has been checked in. How can it be reasonable to forbid all discussion of this? A place where it is specifically permitted would keep the discussion out of the mainstream, yet still allow knowledge to be shared and improved in a community context. Hopefully this would ultimately result in a better, more functional phpBB3.

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code reader
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Re: Why not create a forum for CVS users?

Post by code reader »

rickross wrote: Seriously, we are talking many moons since the last beta, and a LOT of code has been checked in. How can it be reasonable to forbid all discussion of this? A place where it is specifically permitted would keep the discussion out of the mainstream, yet still allow knowledge to be shared and improved in a community context. Hopefully this would ultimately result in a better, more functional phpBB3.
i don't believe such discussion is forbidden.
for instance, see my post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28202 , or this whole thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26838 , or this whole thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26718 (i actively participated in those 3 threads, so i know them. i am quite sure there are many other threads discussing code changes in which i did not participate).

what's "forbidden" is to give support for someone running a board using the cvs version.
this does not mean it's forbidden to discuss the code itself, or specific changes to the code.
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pentapenguin
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Re: Why not create a forum for CVS users?

Post by pentapenguin »

I doubt a CVS discussion forum would be added/supported simply because CVS is a work in progress and is not stable enough for "consumer" use nor is it meant to be.
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marosell
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Re: Why not create a forum for CVS users?

Post by marosell »

I think the point rickross is trying to get it is, specifically not for consumers, but for the testing masses, the ones that submit the majority of the bug reports.

a place for them to discuss "is this the way this is supposed to behaving, how can it be changed, and whats the code that could be changed to do so". that way, the bug reports can be more useful, and can have the solutions to go with them (should the team decide that it's something needing fixing).

just a little something extra for those that actively participate and have boards, and that really like to help out the team. its a valid and good idea, the question is, is it really necessary at this point
rickross
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Re: Why not create a forum for CVS users?

Post by rickross »

pentapenguin wrote: I doubt a CVS discussion forum would be added/supported simply because CVS is a work in progress and is not stable enough for "consumer" use nor is it meant to be.


Pentapenguin, in terms of conventional wisdom, you may be right. With phpBB3, however, we're dealing with a huge codebase that is theoretically nearing RC status but has not had a beta refresh in over 3 months. I shudder to think how many checkins have occurred in that interval of time, and the 3.0B5 release is practically useless as a referent for what bugs are addressed and what new bugs have been introduced.

If this new version were on a normal "release early, release often" cycle that would let the broader (non code-jockeys) community to participate fully in the QA and feedback cycles that drive continuous improvement, then waiting for the next "release" of pre-release code would be non-issue. With almost 100 days since the last such release, it is only natural to have users wanting to benefit from the large number of improvements available only in the CVS repository. Who can fault them - 3 months IS a lot of patience!

This is not about developers or cognoscenti "supporting" users who may get in over their heads with CVS versions. Rather, it is about the need for the entire community to be able to participate fully in the feedback loop that makes the software better. Too many changes/improvements are presently (whether officially or not) "off limits" for discussion because they exist only in CVS. The first thing that happens when someone posts a question or issue about CVS-only code is that someone posts a curt "no support for CVS" message as if the OP has transgressed a sacred rule. It is unfriendly, at best, and most likely inhibits discussion that could result in better, faster improvement cycles to phpBB3.

Let's be clear. We ALL want this software to get better. My suggestion of a new forum would make it easier for the early adopters and brave of heart to be able to discuss their experiences at the bleeding edge. A simple forum is all it takes. I can't see why this wouldn't be a healthy and welcome addition to this community.

Maybe it should be called "The Bleeding Edge" ??

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NNO-Stephen
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Re: Why not create a forum for CVS users?

Post by NNO-Stephen »

you're quite welcome to start one ;)

http://www.olympusCVSusers.com or some jazz.

no need to thank me :mrgreen:
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