Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

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Discussion of general topics related to the new release and its place in the world. Don't discuss new features, report bugs, ask for support, et cetera. Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
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trenzterra
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by trenzterra »

Mark The Daemon wrote: Lets be honest about this. MOD installation is not hard. Follow the instructions exactly how is says in the text and then you will be fine. If you still find that hard then some nice people have grouped together and created EasyMOD for you all to use. A lot of the MODs currently available for phpBB are EM complient and therefore you shouldn't have a problem. If you do then there are dedicated support boards here to help you overcome this. Why create a whole new system when all it takes is to upload a few files and run one install. Personally i think the developers time is better spend developing bigger and better features that the whole community will use, not just a selection.


Mark
I agree that it's not hard, but its tedious work to do with a very large mod... And more often than not you forget to make backups.

A plugin system where you can install/uninstall MODs would be quite good actually. Many a times I installed a MOD only to find out that it messed up my whole forum code. Of course I have backups, but that's beside the point. EasyMOD alleviates some of those, but it's not really enough IMO. Let's not forget that there are countless people using phpBB who are not that programming-inclined as you all...

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naderman
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by naderman »

phpBB was always a system for people who either like the vanilla board or like changing the code to get new functionality, so maybe this is just a part of phpBB's identity? I quite like having a modification system that allows changing all 100% of the code.

balding_ape
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by balding_ape »

naderman wrote: phpBB was always a system for people who either like the vanilla board or like changing the code to get new functionality, so maybe this is just a part of phpBB's identity? I quite like having a modification system that allows changing all 100% of the code.
The system I was talking about, as I understand it, would not prevent anyone from changing any portion of the code they wanted to, nor would it obviate the usefulness of EasyMOD.

DragonlordP
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by DragonlordP »

smithy_dll wrote: If you think you can run a large phpBB forum and expect to not be able to use PHP, then you are sadly mistaken.

You can however, run a small forum with no more than a dozen active users and not know what you are doing. But, you still need to be on the ball with updates to the core package!
I run Greece's biggest rock related forum, with 1700 users, hundreds of them active, 500 posts/day and around 500.000 total posts. I have a webmaster who set up the forum for me, but there's much other work on the site except for the forum and I'd like to be able to do changes to the forum easily without his help. Right now, when I add a mod I just waste my time because I am really not interested in learning php, I just want the mod done.
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smithy_dll
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by smithy_dll »

I will say this, you to go any university, or school even, and they will emphasise thinking and understanding rather than just rote learning!

There is only so much you can do with phpBB without understanding how it works. While we try to make phpBB as easy to use/install/maintain as possible. There will always be some level of expertise required to maintain/fix/modify it. Even with a plugin system. A good example was given by DavidMJ above, what if you want to modify the core functionality of the system. Well, really you can't, you can only extend the system.

A good example is everyone knows the formula E=mc^2, but how many people know what it means, the units each quantity is in, and more importantly, where to use it and how. Everything in our world requires skill. It even requires skill to eat our food, go to the toilet, bathe, breathe, live. You may laught, but I am dead serious, everything in life requires skills.

I am in no way justifying making the system complex. I am just saying that no matter how "simple" you make it, it will always require a set of skills. For some people it's even a struggle for them to understand that you install phpBB through a web browser.
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DragonlordP
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by DragonlordP »

Yes, but the facts are that you can only go in-depth with the things you choose to. Do you know in-depth how does a computer, a television, a stereo system, a mobile phone, a refridgerator, a car, an air-conditioner, a remote control, a microwave oven works? I mean, be able to fix them? If not, then why learn how to fix a forum software?
You can't force people to learn php, just like you can't force them to know much about all the things above. Those who want to, will do.
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Mark The Daemon
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by Mark The Daemon »

DragonlordP wrote: Yes, but the facts are that you can only go in-depth with the things you choose to. Do you know in-depth how does a computer, a television, a stereo system, a mobile phone, a refridgerator, a car, an air-conditioner, a remote control, a microwave oven works? I mean, be able to fix them? If not, then why learn how to fix a forum software?
You can't force people to learn php, just like you can't force them to know much about all the things above. Those who want to, will do.
But thats the whole point. Use EasyMOD if you don't want to run through MOD installation manually. Why reinvent the wheel if its already there and waiting to be used?


Mark
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Kail
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by Kail »

smithy_dll: My point has never been to make things easy but to help people focus on what they'd rather spend their time on. Running safer, more stable boards that are easier to maintain is definitely a good thing and will bring a better reputation to phpBB, will save people time and relieve some stress. I wish I wouldn't have to spend as much time updating boards manually every time a new phpBB release is made available and several MODs happen to conflict with it. There are better ways to spend my time, which is why I'm moving to supporting other projects nowadays, use other open source software simply because it lets me do what I prefer doing and doesn't force me to do repetitive boring tasks.
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balding_ape
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by balding_ape »

Mark The Daemon wrote: But thats the whole point. Use EasyMOD if you don't want to run through MOD installation manually. Why reinvent the wheel if its already there and waiting to be used?
Actually, I thought I was using EasyMOD, but I wasn't. I was manually editing code. My mix-up...retract my previous statements...EasyMOD is the sort of thing for which I was looking. Color me stupid.

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smithy_dll
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Re: Sugestion - Hook system like on vB 3.5

Post by smithy_dll »

DragonlordP wrote: Yes, but the facts are that you can only go in-depth with the things you choose to. Do you know in-depth how does a computer, a television, a stereo system, a mobile phone, a refridgerator, a car, an air-conditioner, a remote control, a microwave oven works? I mean, be able to fix them? If not, then why learn how to fix a forum software?
You can't force people to learn php, just like you can't force them to know much about all the things above. Those who want to, will do.
Either I know how those things work and due to their mass produced factory extra sealedupness they require a professional to fix it, or have to be thrown out and replaced.

The point it that I might not be able to fix them, but I know to not try and fix them myself. But I also take the time to read the manual to read how to maintain/operate it, and when it breaks, pick up the phone and call the manufacturer.

The difference with software is the cost to fix is mute, and the skill set rather easy to pick up with no specialist equipment required.

Kail: That wasn't my point. I'm all for making repetitive tasks easier, but at some point there must be a level of understanding for when things go wrong. This level of understanding could be understand how to fix the problem yourself, or understanding that you need to ask someone for help. EasyMOD could be guaranteed to work for updating phpBB if people didn't modify phpBB, but they do, and is exactly what this topic is about.

For example, if I have my modified phpBB and an update MOD file conflicts, I know to take a look at the source and see if it's a formatting problem and resolve the conflict myself. If I am unable to do that I then have several choices including being proactive and learning how to solve the problem myself. Throwing out all the files and starting again from a clean slate with the existing database, or contracting someone who will know how to solve my problem. (You could also ask support in the phpBB support forum, but support isn't guaranteed)

The same applies to a car lets say. If I need to change my tyres, I have to make sure I get the correct tyre for the car. If I don't know how to change the tyre or select the correct one I have several courses of action I can take. I can find out which type of tyre I require and learn how to change it. I could throw out the car and buy a new one with new tyres and all. Or I could go to my local mechanics and they will know which tyre to use and change it for me (for a small fee). Here I also have one other choice, the manufacturer who will charge me a large fee to change the tyre.

As you can see it would be a huge waste of resources if the car were to be able to change the tyre itself. A waste of fuel carrying around the mechanical system required to change the tyre on the small offset of a chance that I will need it to change the tyre. The same applies here to phpBB w.r.t a hooks system. Implementing a hooks system is a waste of CPU clock cycles carrying around the software system required to hook into the code on the off chance that a plugin would even want to plugin to that section of the code, let alone the change I would use a plugin.

By using core system modification I maintain performance, as well as enjoy the flexibility it provides me with. Back to the car analogy, if I modify my car with magnesium wheels, this won't affect my ability to refuel the car. The engine still performs the same by not having to accomodate other changes I may want to make to it. The reason why it fits into the core system modification analogy is because I don't carry both sets of wheels around with me, I either have the stock (presumably steel) wheels, or the magnesium. With some effort I could go back to the steel wheels if I really wanted to, but it requires some effort still. Same could be said about painting the car a different colour.

Of course there will always be a compromise within all these systems, it is just where the system architect wishes to place these compromises.

What are the factors:
Performance
Safety
Reliability
Ease of use
Easy to modify
etc...

How important are each factor, of course this will be different in everyones opinion. 8)
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