08: Be Style Conscious

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Ptirhiik
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by Ptirhiik »

My point can be summarize to this : qualifications of file and/or directories is absolutly not a need : actually, if you assume that all what that have to be installed should stand in a mod description, you doesn't need to have a rather tricky analyse of filename or dirname. All is written in those mods description. A simpler way to process remains in letting the modder to choose what he want to install (so the mod description to install) on what (so the destination file to modify). Styles and languages can be sum up by dir/, other files haven't this need.

subSilver and lang_english has to remain in the main mod description, but shouldn't be blocking if missing on the install. As the vanilia product includes those two parts, and as it will be enough on most installation, there is no need to rip them off the main mod :).
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by Bananeweizen »

Ptirhiik wrote:My point can be summarize to this : qualifications of file and/or directories is absolutly not a need
...
A simpler way to process remains in letting the modder to choose what he want to install
Why not combine both approaches? You can easily split your MOD into functional parts as you described it and then for each of those functional parts still have the structure of sub directories as in the phpbb root dir.
Most of the extensions will not even bring additional files, I guess. And those extensions (or functional parts) with additional files may have a bit of overhead in their directory structure (e.g. a single language file located in a sub sub sub folder) compared to having all those files directly in the functional part directory. But who does care for some additional directories being created?

So in the end you would have this structure for your mod:

Code: Select all

mod_base_part/install.txt
mod_base_part/some_files.extension
mod_base_part/templates/...
mod_base_part/language/...
...
mod_extension_1/install.txt
mod_extension_1/some_files
mod_extension_1/templates/...
mod_extension_1/admin/...
...
mod_extension_2/install.txt
...
The file structure as well as the functional structure were both absolutely clear with nearly no additional effort for the author. And it's easy to handle for humans as well as for EM.

Ciao, Michael.
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by Ptirhiik »

As I said : it is not a need (and haven't to be), but you can do it like if you want : it would be convenient for some mods, not at all for other. I've got the both case for my mods :).
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by Nuttzy99 »

-=ET=- wrote:#1 subSilver default style?
Required that it be used in MODs. Not required that it be installed on the admin's machine.
-=ET=- wrote:#2 The specific instructions will be proceed instead of subSilver ones?
I don't understand the question.

-=ET=- wrote:#3 What about style localized image?
Same answer I gave on the lang discussion ;)
-=ET=- wrote:#4 And... a suggestion to conclude :wink:
I think I've said before that I want to add this feature, but maybe not in 1.0

-Nuttzy :cool:
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by Nuttzy99 »

Directory paths
The method I proposed allows for a great deal of flexiblity and does not create and overhead beyond what the author determines is necessary. However the desire to mimick the phpBB root is also a valid organization. Therefore I think I should be able to come up with a scheme so that I can accomodate both implementations. If I detect the mimick method is being used, then I'll go with that. Otherwise EM will assume that all lang files will appear in the same dir that the author specifies.

-Nuttzy :cool:
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by -=ET=- »

Ptirhiik wrote:My point can be summarize to this : qualifications of file and/or directories is absolutly not a need : actually, if you assume that all what that have to be installed should stand in a mod description, you doesn't need to have a rather tricky analyse of filename or dirname.
OK, now it's clearer.

So yes I agree. This is a possible third way nearby the spirit of what I previously called the 3rd level of possible way to manage copy instructions: each possible copy instruction must be fully described, even if this imposes many copy instructions.

But now what about language, specific style and optional feature instructions files?
EM will need to know them, so do you imagine a convention to let EM detect them or do imagine new instructions in MOD how-to to point out these files as you want any action write in an instruction?
Do you prefer a /translation/ dir + instruction files named "lang_french.txt" or new lines in MOD how-to like:

Code: Select all

# 
#-----[ TRANSLATIONS ]------------------------------------------------ 
# 
where_I_want/language_instructions_file_for_french.txt
where_I_want/language_instructions_file_for_german.txt

# 
#-----[ STYLES ]------------------------------------------------ 
# 
where_I_want/style_instructions_file_for_subTrail.txt
where_I_want/style_instructions_file_for_subBlack.txt 

# 
#-----[ OPTIONAL FEATURES ]------------------------------------------------ 
# 
where_I_want/blue_optional_feature_instructions_file.txt
where_I_want/red_optional_feature_instructions_file.txt
----------

So ok, except this last question, as I previously said this solution technically works.
But I'll have only one regret with this (and only a regret, not an opposition).

Ok it will authorize developers to do what they want (and that's the positive point in some case I fully agree), but the fact is that with they WILL have to choose a solution to name and store their files which once installed will have the same name.

So therefore it will encourage once again the mess in MODs :-(
Everyone know that it's already the mess with MOD templates (essentially encouraged by phpBBhacks), it's the mess with MOD presentation (file names, dir names & dir structure), and we all loose our time every time we want to install a MOD just to try to understand how the author has structured his archive and his how-to. We always need to carefully read and apply some sometimes strange, complex or unusual instructions.

You've said that IN-LINE instructions was more complex to apply (which is right but we do not have the choice), but with this non standardization encouragement every one will ANYWAY need to choose a structure as it's impossible to put all specific language files, all specific style image files, and so on... in the MOD root directory (they have the same name).
So some will choose to modify names, other to create an exotic structure, other a phpbb structure, and every one will again loose time to VERY carefully read the multiple copy instruction lines to try not to miss details.
And I say that because you are very attached to manual installation, and to keep it as easy as possible.

So OK it works, but what a futur mess with again possible exotic MOD templates, exotic file names, exotic dirs and exotic dir structure!
Support will be more complex too :(

Then what I regret with this proposal as is (it's important), is that we can loose with EM a possibility to try to homogenize "a bit" (not fully) MODs presentation.
I agree that it can be a good thing for developers to have the choice between the phpBB root approach and the optional feature one for the rare MODs which have optional features, but I think it's not necessarily a good thing to authorize everything, and then a future mess.

Moreover, as EM will be able to install specific language and style files instructions, authors will more and more add these files in their MODs archive (for example, Niels has started to include all the last translations he has in its archives because of EM, and I do the same).
So this will encourage more and more this future mess.

So perhaps we should think to use the freedom you want but with a minimum of organization imposed by EM.

For example, as with Nuttzy's suggestion of a translation (or languages) dir, I think, in my opinion, that he should impose a minimal structure in the MOD root dir as this one:

Code: Select all

.MOD_dir/
.|__MOD_how-to.txt
.|__optional_languages/
.|..|__lang_xxxx.txt
.|..|__...
.|__optional_styles/
.|..|__style_xxxx.txt
.|..|__...
.|__optional_features/
.|..|__feature_xxxx.txt
.|..|__...
.|__phpbb_root/ (optional)
....|__...
In this case:
- EM should read the MOD how-to only in the MOD root dir
- EM should read optional language instruction files only in the optional_languages dir and in files named lang_xxxx.txt
- EM should read optional style instruction files only in the optional_styles dir and in files named style_xxxx.txt
- EM should read optional feature instruction files only in the optional_features dir and in files named feature_xxxx.txt
- but authors in this context may put their other files where they want and named as they want! They just need to add an instruction for each one (as you want Ptirhiik)
- and we just suggest, not impose (but it's sometimes important to suggest) a phpbb_root dir with a phpbb root structure in, to put all the files which need to be installed by the MOD and which belong or not to an optional language/style/feature (the author can choose to put then all together in the phpbb_root dir or in optional sub-dir with the specific instruction files.

Like that we may impose a minimal structure to avoid a total mess, but keeping in fact a total freedom for authors to put their files where they want (in a phpbb_root dir, in an optional sub-dir, in sub-dirs by optional features in the optional_features sub-dir, or in any other dir), and with the name they want.

Now and finally for this point, if EM does apply what you image and as Nuttzy already said that he won't implement the optional choice in MOD installation feature until a release around the 1.2.0, EM will just need to be able to skip any instruction that can not be executed (style not installed or language not installed), as all possible instructions will be written in your scheme.

But it's interesting :-)
Ptirhiik wrote:subSilver and lang_english has to remain in the main mod description, but shouldn't be blocking if missing on the install. As the vanilia product includes those two parts, and as it will be enough on most installation, there is no need to rip them off the main mod :).
OK so...
- you want to have always style instructions of a default one and language instructions of a default one in MODs,
- this main style and main language should be subSilver and English,
- but if they're not installed on the board, this should not failed the installation... if other style and language can be installed instead I suppose.

Right?

On that, I really think that Nuttzy need to be more precise.
- Will subSliver be the only style authorized for an EMC MOD as the default style in the MOD (not in specific style instruction files)?
- Will English be the only language authorized for an EMC MOD as the default language in the MOD (not in specific language instruction files)?
New! He has just answered this question and it's no. The main language may be another one than English...
http://area51.phpbb.com/phpBB22/viewtop ... 1269#81269
- Will the MOD default style and language need to be installed if the installed style and languages can be modded by specific files provide with the MOD?
Nuttzy99 wrote:Required that it be used in MODs. Not required that it be installed on the admin's machine.
So, what does it mean?
Required by the phpBB group for MODs, but not require by EM in fact (as for English)?

My personal opinion is (even if no one cares about it lol :) ) that:
- Yes subSilver should be the only default style of a MOD as it's a respect for the phpBB group and their work. Every MOD should be able to be installed on a vanilla release.
- But no, English should not necessarily be the default language as phpBB is not an English software and even the phpBB group is not an American or British group. Moreover, doing this will cause that many non fluent coders will not be able to create EMC MODs :(
- And on the last point, I have no opinion.
Nuttzy99 wrote:I don't understand the question.
I think my question is quite stupid but it was just to be sure...
In the main MOD how-to, you nearly always have instructions for style files (files in templates/xxxxxx/...). They need to be written for a style (subSilver as the phpBB group asks, or another one if you authorize it with EM).
So I wanted to know if instructions in specific style instruction files will be proceed after or instead of the one in the main MOD how-to (instead or after of each instruction for a file in templates/xxxxxxx/...) :-)
Nuttzy99 wrote:Same answer I gave on the lang discussion ;)
OK, but I think it will possibly be solved by the discussion here because according to the choice you will make (stay on your first proposal, use more the phpBB group one or my first one, or Ptirhiik's one and what I've just said above) this issue may be solved.
Nuttzy99 wrote:I think I've said before that I want to add this feature, but maybe not in 1.0
No at all.
You answered me on the possibility to have a choice for optional feature and said not before maybe the 1.2.0.
But this suggestion is absolutely new (I've never read it anywhere else) and so you didn't say any thing about it (or I missed it) :-)

P.S.: sorry by advance for all the error I'm sure I've made in my English :oops:
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by Nuttzy99 »

-=ET=- wrote:- Will subSliver be the only style authorized for an EMC MOD as the default style in the MOD (not in specific style instruction files)?
Yes. MODs will that modify templates will have only subSilver in the main MOD and all other templates will be addressed externally. However, this does NOT mean the user will need to have subSilver installed (once I fix this ;))
- Will English be the only language authorized for an EMC MOD as the default language in the MOD (not in specific language instruction files)?
New! He has just answered this question and it's no. The main language may be another one than English...
http://area51.phpbb.com/phpBB22/viewtop ... 1269#81269
You are correct. Other languages will be able to be set as the main.
- Will the MOD default style and language need to be installed if the installed style and languages can be modded by specific files provide with the MOD?
Style = no. Language = The user will be able to select a default language. Why would he select one that he doesn't have installed!?!?
So I wanted to know if instructions in specific style instruction files will be proceed after or instead of the one in the main MOD how-to (instead or after of each instruction for a file in templates/xxxxxxx/...) :-)
If I understand correctly the answer is "instead of". For example if you have blueGray installed and the MOD provides files to MOD blueGray, then these will be excuted on the blueGray files instead of whatever is being done for subSilver. blueGray may require more or fewer modifications and therefore the modifications needed are going to be completely different from subSilver. So it will kind of be like having a MOD included that will modify just the blueGray files. If that MOD is not included then EM will just try to do its best given the instructions for subSilver and try to apply them to blueGray.

If there's anything I forgot to answer, let me know ;)

-Nuttzy :cool:
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by -=ET=- »

#1, #2 & #4 Fine, thanks for your answers :)

For the 3rd question...
Nuttzy99 wrote:Style = no. Language = The user will be able to select a default language. Why would he select one that he doesn't have installed!?!?
2 things :)

- As for the style, will a user be able to install a MOD write for English/subSilver with a language file for German, on a German/subSilver board without English installed?

- "The user will be able to select a default language" What do you mean by that? At the step 1 we will be able to choose from all the available languages in the MOD the one we want to be the default one for all the board installed languages for which the MOD has no translation?
Nuttzy99 wrote:If there's anything I forgot to answer, let me know ;)
Just the last point. You maintain your answer for my new suggestion (the 2 buttons to mod new styles and new languages) ?

So your answers are:
- not before the 1.2.0 release for optional feature choice in step 1,
- not before the 1.0.0 release for the mod a new style or new language buttons?
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by Ptirhiik »

The point you miss ET is the foreign language option has to include a mod description which will have the dedicated edition and copies describe as any mod. You will so have somewhere in the mod pack a mod including those instructions (or similar) :

Code: Select all

#
#---[ OPEN ]--------------
#
languages/lang_french/lang_main.php
#
#---[ FIND ]-------------
#
etc.
If you are able to catch all the mod descriptions included in a mod pack, you have no need to qualify anything : all is already qualified by the author with the today mod template. From there, there is no need to add anything as it is already solved.

There is a very important issue with no-english present or no subSilver present on the board regarding copies btw : if you have a phpBB structure and use a copy *.* to *.*, you have a very good chance to create the directories. If there is at end no problems with templates, it will have with languages, as the language will be recognized.
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Re: 08: Be Style Conscious

Post by -=ET=- »

Ptirhiik wrote:The point you miss ET is the foreign language option has to include a mod description which will have the dedicated edition and copies describe as any mod. You will so have somewhere in the mod pack a mod including those instructions (or similar) :

Code: Select all

#
#---[ OPEN ]--------------
#
languages/lang_french/lang_main.php
#
#---[ FIND ]-------------
#
etc.
If you are able to catch all the mod descriptions included in a mod pack, you have no need to qualify anything : all is already qualified by the author with the today mod template. From there, there is no need to add anything as it is already solved.
Sure :)
But I don't know why you say I didn't see this point as I've perfectly understand it :|

But as you say "If you are able to catch all the mod descriptions included in a mod pack", I just asked how would you imagine this?
By specific new instructions or a mechanism as Nuttzy's one for example?
That's all.

A part from that, I clearly said that I fully agree with you.
If you write all needed instructions, you don't NEED to impose special file names or a specific dir structure. It's not a technical need, I fully agree.

And after that, the rest of my post was just to explain my point of view, saying that it could be useful to add (even if it's not a need) some minimal rules to avoid a general mess :)
Ptirhiik wrote:There is a very important issue with no-english present or no subSilver present on the board regarding copies btw : if you have a phpBB structure and use a copy *.* to *.*, you have a very good chance to create the directories. If there is at end no problems with templates, it will have with languages, as the language will be recognized.
Ok but that's NOT the context I explain this possibility!
If you had carefully read me when I talked about this simple "possibility" (not necessarily always judicious) offered by the phpBB root approach, I always said that EM NEED to be able to skip file copy when the language or style it's intend to is not already installed!

But forget about this. This is really the last possibility offered by this approach and it's not representative of the whole interests and advantages of it.

So to go back to the main subject, despite what you can think I'm always open to any approach and as I said yours is interesting too.
I never focused on only one. I just try to imagine and think of what may be the best solution for Nuttzy and EM.

So, once again as I already said, I fully agree that your proposal works too and can be useful for some kind of MOD.
On the other hand, you can accept that I may want to explore other approaches too, and wanted to think about minimal rules to prevent a foreseeable mess.

In fact, if I've written a so long post at the top of this page it's obviously because I find your approach perhaps more able to support the 2 approaches (to give the choice to authors).
The fact is that I'm not really convinced by the current proposal of Nuttzy (with special file names, all same files in the same dir and EM which do what it can).

So I'm interested to have the possibility to structure a MOD by optional feature (to have the choice in fact), but I want to try to think and find limits to avoid a general mess authorized by your proposal as is :-)

P.S.: one more thing. The questions I ask to Nuttzy are not what I would prefer. It's just to help clarifying his approach for every one and have some material for me and help my modest brain storming.
So when he says that copy instructions for language file should be written only once for subSilver in the main how-to of the MOD, it's the answer he gives to clarify his approach.
I do not necessarily agree; but that important to ask him to know and be able to think. :)
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