[RFC] Include mobile style

Note: We are moving the topics of this forum and it will be deleted at some point

Publish your own request for comments/change or patches for the next version of phpBB. Discuss the contributions and proposals of others. Upcoming releases are 3.2/Rhea and 3.3.
Post Reply
User avatar
callumacrae
Former Team Member
Posts: 1046
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:37 am
Location: England
Contact:

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by callumacrae »

Arty wrote:JavaScript should not be used for design, that's what CSS is for. It should only be used to enhance functionality, but style must work properly without it.
Why? Please don't just say stuff like that. 10 years ago, you could have said that without justifying yourself. These days, everyone is carrying around smartphones that all support JavaScript.

If it were up to you guys our computers would still all have floppy disk drives!
Made by developers, for developers!
My blog

User avatar
DavidIQ
Customisations Team Leader
Customisations Team Leader
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:29 pm
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by DavidIQ »

I don't think you've answered the question at all. I'm curious myself as well so I'll repeat: why is JavaScript necessary at all to make the style look correctly on mobile devices? Wouldn't it just be a matter of using proper CSS like everyone is suggesting?

You're also totally ignoring the fact that someone already said they disable JavaScript because it makes their phone's browser slow so it's not a matter of "outdated/unsupported" browsers here, although I'm not so sure this happens that often with the current day batch of mobile devices.
Image

User avatar
Arty
Former Team Member
Posts: 985
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 2:36 pm
Location: Mars
Contact:

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by Arty »

callumacrae wrote:Why? Please don't just say stuff like that. 10 years ago, you could have said that without justifying yourself. These days, everyone is carrying around smartphones that all support JavaScript.
Since when it became acceptable for software packages to rely on JS for styling? And not just for desktop, but for devices that often have JS disabled and have option to disable JS?

User avatar
callumacrae
Former Team Member
Posts: 1046
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:37 am
Location: England
Contact:

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by callumacrae »

DavidIQ wrote:I don't think you've answered the question at all. I'm curious myself as well so I'll repeat: why is JavaScript necessary at all to make the style look correctly on mobile devices? Wouldn't it just be a matter of using proper CSS like everyone is suggesting?
callumacrae wrote:All the decent mobile libraries and frameworks use it. Developing a mobile style from scratch and testing it fully would take months upon months, while the libraries and frameworks have already been tested.
Basically, to save development time. It isn't required, it just reduces the development time by a couple months.
DavidIQ wrote:You're also totally ignoring the fact that someone already said they disable JavaScript because it makes their phone's browser slow so it's not a matter of "outdated/unsupported" browsers here, although I'm not so sure this happens that often with the current day batch of mobile devices.
I ignored it I don't think that it is true and I don't want to dispute it in this topic.

Arty wrote:
callumacrae wrote:Why? Please don't just say stuff like that. 10 years ago, you could have said that without justifying yourself. These days, everyone is carrying around smartphones that all support JavaScript.
Since when it became acceptable for software packages to rely on JS for styling? And not just for desktop, but for devices that often have JS disabled and have option to disable JS?
My device has a disable CSS button. I'm pretty sure multiple people will have said that about the use of CSS before.

Sometimes, we have to move with everyone else. How many times have you seen people complaining that phpBB is years behind everything else? Maybe we should listen to them.
Made by developers, for developers!
My blog

Danielx64
Registered User
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:42 am

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by Danielx64 »

DavidIQ wrote:I don't think you've answered the question at all. I'm curious myself as well so I'll repeat: why is JavaScript necessary at all to make the style look correctly on mobile devices? Wouldn't it just be a matter of using proper CSS like everyone is suggesting?

You're also totally ignoring the fact that someone already said they disable JavaScript because it makes their phone's browser slow so it's not a matter of "outdated/unsupported" browsers here, although I'm not so sure this happens that often with the current day batch of mobile devices.
Well the phone that I got that it was doing it on is about 2 years old and I just got an updated model of that phone the other week. I don't know what app the old phone got but my new one got a version of NetFront™ Browser installed.

Also have anyone checked the WAP version of a online forum that I've linked to before? As far as I know everything still work without javascript, it just plain html and css.

Oleg
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:38 am
Contact:

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by Oleg »

callumacrae wrote: Basically, to save development time. It isn't required, it just reduces the development time by a couple months.
When style developers make this argument I'm sorry but I have no sympathy. After years of development and who knows how many man-hours expended css is still extremely hard to use. The primitives are counter-intuitive (hello floats and negative margins), commonly wanted designs are impossible to achieve in generic ways (hello columns), there is zero modularity or tweakability (how many values do I have to change again to make the sidebar 10px wider?), each browser does everything differently and there is no solution in sight to any of these issues. I have to use preprocessors if I want something as simple as straightforward four-operation math, or trivial variable substitution. And good luck getting a designer to give you a stylesheet written in something like sass.

Now you want to cheat by using a real programming language to compensate for css's failure to be a presentation language, but you still want to use css? Sorry, I don't care for this one bit. Fix css to not suck or come up with something entirely different. Using javascript for layout is something programmers are entitled to, not designers.

End rant.

User avatar
Erik Frèrejean
Registered User
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:25 pm
Location: surfnet
Contact:

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by Erik Frèrejean »

callumacrae wrote:
Arty wrote:
callumacrae wrote:Why? Please don't just say stuff like that. 10 years ago, you could have said that without justifying yourself. These days, everyone is carrying around smartphones that all support JavaScript.
Since when it became acceptable for software packages to rely on JS for styling? And not just for desktop, but for devices that often have JS disabled and have option to disable JS?
My device has a disable CSS button. I'm pretty sure multiple people will have said that about the use of CSS before.
Big difference, if you disable CSS a site is still usable (assuming that the HTML is correctly structured). Build the UI in javascript and turn it off the site becomes useless.
Available on .com
Support Toolkit developer

User avatar
Arty
Former Team Member
Posts: 985
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 2:36 pm
Location: Mars
Contact:

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by Arty »

callumacrae wrote:Sometimes, we have to move with everyone else. How many times have you seen people complaining that phpBB is years behind everything else? Maybe we should listen to them.
That's bullshit argument. Point me to a modern forum software that doesn't work without JS. You might be surprised to find out that all of them work fine with JS disabled.

JavaScript should be used only to enhance user experience. CSS should be used for styling. Period. I don't understand why you are even debating this.

User avatar
callumacrae
Former Team Member
Posts: 1046
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:37 am
Location: England
Contact:

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by callumacrae »

Arty wrote:
callumacrae wrote:Sometimes, we have to move with everyone else. How many times have you seen people complaining that phpBB is years behind everything else? Maybe we should listen to them.
That's bullshit argument. Point me to a modern forum software that doesn't work without JS. You might be surprised to find out that all of them work fine with JS disabled.

JavaScript should be used only to enhance user experience. CSS should be used for styling. Period. I don't understand why you are even debating this.
On the desktop, I can totally agree with you. On the mobile, I do not. Neither do any of the other forum softwares that provide mobile styles:

Forum software mobile styles that require JS:
vBulletin
IPB

Forum software mobile styles that don't:
N/A

Forum software without mobile styles:
SMF
MyBB
XenForo
FluxBB
Made by developers, for developers!
My blog

User avatar
Erik Frèrejean
Registered User
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:25 pm
Location: surfnet
Contact:

Re: [RFC] Include mobile style

Post by Erik Frèrejean »

callumacrae wrote:
Arty wrote:
callumacrae wrote:Sometimes, we have to move with everyone else. How many times have you seen people complaining that phpBB is years behind everything else? Maybe we should listen to them.
That's bullshit argument. Point me to a modern forum software that doesn't work without JS. You might be surprised to find out that all of them work fine with JS disabled.

JavaScript should be used only to enhance user experience. CSS should be used for styling. Period. I don't understand why you are even debating this.
On the desktop, I can totally agree with you. On the mobile, I do not. Neither do any of the other forum softwares that provide mobile styles:

Forum software mobile styles that require JS:
vBulletin
IPB
Well actually those agree that you must support non-javascript, just tested this and I can navigate both just fine mobile with javascript turned off. The vB one only looks bad but the IPB one, looks and works great.
Available on .com
Support Toolkit developer

Post Reply