Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

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Louis7777
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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by Louis7777 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:46 am

hanakin wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:47 am
As you say "do you ever really go that deep on google results? maybe the first two pages that's it." Same with forums really...probably even more so. Again not sure how the implementation will go...

[...]

The fact that we use archaic pagination which is a very complicated and cumbersome process as opposed to straight lazy loading should be considered for simplification merits alone IMHO.
I'm glad that it's not a final decision. I don't understand why you think that pagination is complicated and cumbersome.

Anyway, I'll just use one more argument right below and I beg you to consider it.

Google results are one case where going deep is not what we'd usually want to do, alright. Forums too? Some, maybe.
However, forums can be anything. The community that hosts the forums can be anything too.
Going deeper and being able to do so easily certainly matters for many kinds of forums, and pagination can satisfy the navigational needs for all of them.
Is "load more" also appropriate for all kinds of forums? I don't think so. Thus, those kinds of forums need pagination.

In my opinion, "load more" can render useless many types of content.

Take YouTube comments, for example. On very popular YouTube videos will you ever see all the older discussions? No you won't, because at best you will scroll through the discussion for a few seconds before you realize that you don't want to go through infinite scrolling. Thus, old comments are rendered useless. Pity, because with the diversity of videos hosted on YouTube, old comments may contain useful pieces of information, instructions and tips. They can be entertaining too. And what if you can't read them all in one sitting? You better keep that browser tab open until you do, otherwise you won't go through scrolling again in order to touch the bottom! At least the YouTube devs were wise enough to finally make @mentions bold to stand out in comment replies after years and years of comment replies looking weird. It also took them a while to get the threaded comments right (well, almost) and to remove the Google+ madness, but then they removed pagination. Screw it, I'll just read the top comments.

Take YouTube search results, for example. They are not exactly like Google results where viewing the 1st and 2nd page is almost always satisfactory and sufficient (now I wonder why Google results don't have a "load more" button). I used to find lots of great videos by going deeper... well, until when there was a pagination at least. Now? Screw it. If the first results are not satisfactory I'm not going to scroll and scroll, because that clutters my screen and I can't delimit the content that I am viewing and it is annoying. I'm going to refine my search terms. So I'm really sorry smaller YouTubers - I may have missed your good content and I may never discover your channel!

Take IMDb reviews. I used to quickly scan the first pages, reading with a lot of suspicion and not taking the ratings seriously because there are too many paid reviews among them... and then I'd go deeper and deeper till the 10th page and then even deeper at random pages to make sure that people still write good comments about the movie. Then, earlier in 2018 they got rid of pagination and replaced it with a "load more" button and also narrowed the reviews' column. So now I stopped reading them. The navigation and the entire feature became useless!

P.S.: Let's be real. There's nothing wrong with the pagination usability and functionality. All these sites that implement "load more" are mainly doing it for the looks and trendiness, a cool button with a spinner, animations etc., because it's easier to think of a responsive design for a button that will fit nicely in your smartphone's screen. Also, perhaps they believe that their users are apes who are having trouble using pagination but won't have trouble interacting with a "load more" button which only requires a click to grasp the things it can do for them? A pagination can fit nicely too, and can look beautiful as well, but with a bit more effort.
Last edited by Louis7777 on Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DavidIQ
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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by DavidIQ » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:10 am

I'm assuming this isn't going to be apied to the actual topics, right?
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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by david63 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:57 am

In my opinion both pagination and "Load more" have their place and it is also dependant on where you are on the board and your role on the board.

"Load more" for a topic to display posts is, in most cases, probably OK as generally, in my experience, you only go back/forward one or two pages - I am sure that there are exceptions to that which could be catered for with a "Show all" button (although I don't know how that would affect server load).

However "Load more" would, again in my opinion, be totally inappropriate within a forum for listing topics and for the likes of Member list and most definitely not for reports in the ACP (which I appreciate is not being reworked just yet)

"Load more" is probably more suited to end user use whereas pagination is more suited to Admin use.

One thing that I find annoying with "Load more" on most sites is that if you click on something and move away from that page and then press the back button (either within the application or in the browser) it takes you back to the start and that for me would be a deal breaker.
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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by warmweer » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:09 am

Louis7777 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:22 am
...
3Di wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:24 pm
That's good for navigation!
Why is it good and what's suddenly wrong with pagination?
See the context of the reply (= your quote of an image which fills the page)
3Di wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:24 pm
What's the reason for quoting such a big image? :?
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Louis7777
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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by Louis7777 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:20 pm

warmweer wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:09 am
See the context of the reply (= your quote of an image which fills the page)
3Di wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:24 pm
What's the reason for quoting such a big image? :?
Well yeah, I really needn't quote it but I just felt like really emphasizing it.

Anyway, @warmweer what does posting a long image have to do with pagination? I don't see the connection.

We could have quotes with a max-height and faded out content at the bottom (pressing it would expand it), just like Invision Power Board does it. It looks and works really well.

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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by DavidIQ » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:11 pm

david63 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:57 am
"Load more" for a topic to display posts is, in most cases, probably OK as generally, in my experience, you only go back/forward one or two pages - I am sure that there are exceptions to that which could be catered for with a "Show all" button (although I don't know how that would affect server load).
There are topics that span hundreds of pages. That could be a huge server load.

I think the benefits here need to be weighed. If adding "load more" to topics adds unneeded complexity to topic rendering because we still need to display unread messages and specific replies along with the replies around it to add context, then that needs to be evaluated to see if it would even be worth it for topics weighing that against any benefits to be had from adding such a feature. We also need to keep in mind that this is still forum software, not a commenting system or even a threaded topic format where such a feature might make more sense.
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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by hanakin » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:50 pm

DavidIQ wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:11 pm
david63 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:57 am
"Load more" for a topic to display posts is, in most cases, probably OK as generally, in my experience, you only go back/forward one or two pages - I am sure that there are exceptions to that which could be catered for with a "Show all" button (although I don't know how that would affect server load).
There are topics that span hundreds of pages. That could be a huge server load.

I think the benefits here need to be weighed. If adding "load more" to topics adds unneeded complexity to topic rendering because we still need to display unread messages and specific replies along with the replies around it to add context, then that needs to be evaluated to see if it would even be worth it for topics weighing that against any benefits to be had from adding such a feature. We also need to keep in mind that this is still forum software, not a commenting system or even a threaded topic format where such a feature might make more sense.
Actually there is no server load issue you do not load anything but what we load now. You just fetch and load the next page of results either on click of a button or when you scroll past a certain point or what not...

Also this is all handled in the front end meaning if you want either way you can easily change the theme as well.
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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by DavidIQ » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:03 pm

hanakin wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:50 pm
Actually there is no server load issue you do not load anything but what we load now. You just fetch and load the next page of results either on click of a button or when you scroll past a certain point or what not...
I was commenting about loading an entire 400 page topic via some "View all replies" button, which would certainly cause heavy server loads.
hanakin wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:50 pm
Also this is all handled in the front end meaning if you want either way you can easily change the theme as well.
While entirely true, the default style has to support reading unread replies as well as being able to load a specific reply, both of which are core features. There's likely other features that must be supported in the default style as well. How you keep those core features in place is obviously up to you, but they need to be supported by the default style and I don't see how that's possible with a "Load more" setup for topics.

I think having this "Load more" feature is fine for forums as one views the list of topics, but that doesn't really fit in well (maybe not at all) with how one interacts or reads through topics.
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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by hanakin » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:22 pm

Ah First for clarification we were disscussing forums not topics. I have not started working on topics yet. As I have not started yet I am not rellay sure what features you are refering to specifically for them, but if we did and I am not saying we will for topics it would still work the same way you would only load the topics for the page you are on...it would only fetch what is needed and adjust the dom as you scrolled. You can even dymanically display the page you are on if that was desired. You still have paging in the background, you just render the content and interact with the pages seamlessly with no or limited clicking required and page reloads. You would still be able to go to a specific post/first/last/first unread etc... It would just load the surrounding posts
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Re: Ideas. Standard Style Improvements.

Post by hanakin » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:28 pm

Louis7777 wrote: @Louis7777
take a look at how nodebb handles paging. The design needs some work but essentially what I am refering too.

https://community.nodebb.org/category/3 ... evelopment

It scrolls but updates the dynamic nav in the header. The y also have an issue with reaching the footer which is usually solved by an inital load more button.
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