Default Style

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brunoais
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Re: Default Style

Post by brunoais »

callumacrae wrote: -1 for 4.0. By that time, JS will be standardised across all the major browsers, and the only people without JS will be the screen readers and the idiots with NoScript installed. It's important that the forums remain usable, but I wouldnt object at all if the minor features required JavaScript.
I say that all stuff that is reasonably possible without js should be possible without js.

Stuff that makes sense for who has js and does needs to be available to whom does not have js:
Posting, editing posts, moderate a post (lock, move, etc...), read posts, navigate to all pages the normal user that uses js can, hovering & appear (CSS ;)).

Stuff that makes sense for who has js and does not need to be available to whom does not have js:
Quick (insert-name-here (reply, edit,...)), anything dynamic that is not hovering & appear (I.e cannot be made using CSS only), multiquote, infinite scrolling, basically anything else you can think of.

BTW, are you calling idiot to 2,213,329 firefox users?!?!?

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callumacrae
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Re: Default Style

Post by callumacrae »

If post moderation is going to use AJAX, I don't see why it should support users with JS disabled.


I guess that ignorant or misinformed would be better words for them, actually.
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/a3
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Re: Default Style

Post by /a3 »

callumacrae wrote:
/a3 wrote:And as I always point out, users should be able to use the full functionality of phpBB without JavaScript, ie. options that are normally "hidden" are revealed, even if this means a slightly more cluttered layout.
-1 for 4.0. By that time, JS will be standardised across all the major browsers, and the only people without JS will be the screen readers and the idiots with NoScript installed. It's important that the forums remain usable, but I wouldnt object at all if the minor features required JavaScript.
callumacrae wrote:If post moderation is going to use AJAX, I don't see why it should support users with JS disabled.


I guess that ignorant or misinformed would be better words for them, actually.
I thought this argument was over. :? Anyway, I was discussing the subject at hand: a new style, not whether phpBB should support non-JS users. Funnily enough, you don't seem to think screen readers and blind people are important. Or people who don't want JavaScript.
callumacrae wrote:My job title is "JavaScript Developer"
Well, I guess that explains everything you've written here. Your opinion is very biased.

Anyway, I'm done here until you can come up with something new.
$ git commit -m "YOLO"

Mii
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Re: Default Style

Post by Mii »

phpBB 4 should certainly use AJAX. If it isn't, you'll loose me and like 50% of the people using phpBB. When phpBB will arrive, every serious site will have AJAX features.
I saw some of you mentioning it should be an easy style. I don't know, but AJAX makes things easy. You need less age loads, things go faster and I mean, every browser will standard have JavaScript enabled by then, so the only people who won't be able to use it are the people who turned it off on purpose.

Prosilver should be an inactive style, like subsilver is now.

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callumacrae
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Re: Default Style

Post by callumacrae »

Mii wrote:phpBB 4 should certainly use AJAX. If it isn't, you'll loose me and like 50% of the people using phpBB. When phpBB will arrive, every serious site will have AJAX features.
I saw some of you mentioning it should be an easy style. I don't know, but AJAX makes things easy. You need less age loads, things go faster and I mean, every browser will standard have JavaScript enabled by then, so the only people who won't be able to use it are the people who turned it off on purpose.

Prosilver should be an inactive style, like subsilver is now.
+1
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brunoais
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Re: Default Style

Post by brunoais »

Mii wrote: I saw some of you mentioning it should be an easy style. I don't know, but AJAX makes things easy. You need less age loads, things go faster and I mean, every browser will standard have JavaScript enabled by then, so the only people who won't be able to use it are the people who turned it off on purpose.
They have the right to be able to do all basic tasks in the forum just like the est of the ppl. Just because they don't have js or have js turned off is no reason not to make a working system for who does not want (or can't have) js. There are still many 3G phones that do not support js and those will exist for some years (dunno how many). We should understand that situation and allow them to be able to work with phpbb even if multiquote does not work or quick reply does not work or you can't see the page in an infinite scroll or use quick edit (if we implement it). Despite those, they must be able to create a topic, post, reply, quote a single post, send PM, etc... but with much more effort.

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callumacrae
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Re: Default Style

Post by callumacrae »

brunoais wrote:
Mii wrote: I saw some of you mentioning it should be an easy style. I don't know, but AJAX makes things easy. You need less age loads, things go faster and I mean, every browser will standard have JavaScript enabled by then, so the only people who won't be able to use it are the people who turned it off on purpose.
They have the right to be able to do all basic tasks in the forum just like the est of the ppl. Just because they don't have js or have js turned off is no reason not to make a working system for who does not want (or can't have) js. There are still many 3G phones that do not support js and those will exist for some years (dunno how many). We should understand that situation and allow them to be able to work with phpbb even if multiquote does not work or quick reply does not work or you can't see the page in an infinite scroll or use quick edit (if we implement it). Despite those, they must be able to create a topic, post, reply, quote a single post, send PM, etc... but with much more effort.
Actually, I would argue that by phpBB 4 it is about time to completely drop support for browsers that don't support JavaScript.

The phones and screen readers argument has been disproved multiple times. First survey that comes to mind is this one, which showed that only 1.6% of screen reader users have no JavaScript, compared to 10.4% the previous year. It's probably not a linear decrease percentage-wise, but we can fairly safely assume that the amount of screen readers that don't support JavaScript will be < 0.1% by the time phpBB 4 is released.

I haven't seen any phone stats recently, I'd be interested in seeing some up to date stats.
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brunoais
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Re: Default Style

Post by brunoais »

^
Are you forcing users that prefer js turned off to turn it on else they will not be able to use phpbb4?

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callumacrae
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Re: Default Style

Post by callumacrae »

brunoais wrote:^
Are you forcing users that prefer js turned off to turn it on else they will not be able to use phpbb4?
That's what I think should happen, yes. By the time phpBB 4 is released, the only people who won't have JavaScript support will be the people who have disabled it.

Currently, about 7% of websites do not function with JavaScript disabled (can't remember the source, sorry). By the time phpBB4 is released, that number will be *considerably* higher, as more and more web applications are starting to be released, and AJAX and animations start to be used.


Why do you disable js, anyway? Tinfoil hat, or because you don't like ads?
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brunoais
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Re: Default Style

Post by brunoais »

callumacrae wrote: Why do you disable js, anyway? Tinfoil hat, or because you don't like ads?
Don't like specific kind of ads and to prevent abuse of javascript exploits. Some websites may try to abuse the security limits and try to find bugs that allows them to do something that can cause install of malware (as an example). If you don't understand the reason you are open not to use it but I hope you respect who uses it.

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