[Olympus] Has it failed already?

Discussion of general topics related to the new version and its place in the world. Don't discuss new features, report bugs, ask for support, et cetera. Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
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Discussion of general topics related to the new release and its place in the world. Don't discuss new features, report bugs, ask for support, et cetera. Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
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TwistedWeather
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:32 pm

Re: [Olympus] Has it failed already?

Post by TwistedWeather »

balding_ape wrote: Regarding QR:

The way I understand it (and I'm hesitant to "speak for" the developers here, but this is what I remember the justification being...in any case, I hope they will correct me if I misrepresent anything), there is a belief (rightly or wrongly) that the QR feature has a tendency to encourage certain patterns of posts (like a new post made solely for the purpose of saying "++" or some other form of low-value content). Forcing users to take more actions is likely to reduce such tendencies. As developers of social software, the devs made the decision not to support that sort of feature.

You're welcome to buy that or not. I'm skeptical until I see some empirical data, but it doesn't sound outlandish to me, but then, that doesn't mean it's right.

The obvious tradeoff is that many people may not use the QR feature that way, and they enjoy the convenience it offers. Of course, for administrators that prefer to have the feature, there are mods that enable them to add it fairly trivially.
Now this i wont argue as even i will admit to have seen happen a few times. In short some people not thinking before hitting the submit button can be a problem with QR. But that is not a big deal and wont be at all with the newer features such as mod que etc that will be had with the newer version.

Thanks for pointing that out.

ronoxQ
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Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:16 pm

Re: [Olympus] Has it failed already?

Post by ronoxQ »

I do not think whatever speed (or lack thereof) other OSS projects may display is relavent. Olympus development is proceeding, and that is obvious by the commits.

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If you would like to criticize the method of the release (which is to put together a very large featureset and release seldom) and say that small, more frequent releases are better, valid point. IIRC, the developers themselves indicated that the method used for 2.1 may not be ideal.

Maybe you can lament the fact that the key lead developer (for whatever reasons) stopped working in the project regularly. That is not the case now, though, so it just seems like whining over something that's done and cannot be undone.

If you want to just come in and say that phpBB3 will be behind many other forums when it comes out...so what? What is the point? What goal are you trying to accomplish? And I don't mean that flippantly or derisively; I just don't understand what effect you think this has.

The tone you use, which is generally arrogant and contemptuous (not trying to insult you here; just reread your last post, and if you can't see that tone, then I'm not sure we can agree on what those words mean), certainly is not going to help accomplish your goal, unless that goal is to irritate people (and I doubt that is the case).
Sadly, me being abrasive is just a part of my personality. It's not something I particularly care to fix, either: it does seem to get things going whenever I post. ^_^ And I'm sorry if I'm being irritating: it's part finals-stress and part general argumentative nature.

I do, however, think that smaller releases would make more sense, if only because it constantly gives users more to fiddle around with and make suggestions about.
You don't seem trust-able either. I am not obligated to prove you wrong/right, especially when I consider the way you "ask" for it. I had no reason to fake the results of my test as I don't have real feelings for software, unlike some people.
Fair enough. Try the demo on vUBlletin.com; I'm pretty sure it uses the most recent version (3.6) by now.
As for the rest how about trying to explain what exactly phpbb3 wont have that VB does other then what i already said with respect to QR and Ajax? And i am asking about USEFULL/used features that are enjoyed by BOTH admins and members alike. I highly doubt you can name any. It's my opinion that MOST ( Not all ) of those who will chose to use/stay with VB and or IPB will soley do it because of the name and to say mine is better then yours because i spent money on mine and NOTHING ELSE. I see what gets posted on them support sites so i am almost certain of this. Plus i see that mentioned on sites that do use them by the admins of those sites.
What vBulletin has (I think it's better than IPB, mainly because it's still a version or two ahead):

First of all, it has a DHTML menus system. And many of you will say that it's not important, but it is: it allows forum owners to really make things more intuitive for users, and it allows for easier navigations with fewer clicks. It also has a WYSIWYG, which I personally think is essential for easing user experience. Its built-in FAQS are far easier to navigate (not a feature but it's still nice). Its plugin manager allows for easy modification. This one, and the menus, are the two I like the most, though, as they're the two I use the most.

And BTW IMHO IPB is by FAR a better product then VB. A few years ago you could say that and i would agree but not no more. And IF phpbb does ever decide to include QR and SOME AJAX i believe it WILL be better then the rest. Just adding SOME ajax alone will make phpbb3 equall with the others. Which say's alot considering how much i believe QR needs to be added.
I'd be interested in seeing why you think that about IPB, but that's off-topic: PM me about that if you want. However, I do agree that AJAX is the biggest barrier right now.

You're forgetting that they're aimed at different markets. vBulletin and IPB are designed for large-scale forums.
Isn't phpBB, also?
Roles?

Another feature vB doesn't have: PM filtering/rules, as in Olympus here.
Yes it does. What version of vB are you using? That's been there for a while now.
Then learn what it can do before you complain about what you haven't noticed yet.
I think I have tested it thoroughly. However, if I have missed something (like AJAX), tell me right away.
For the moment, I'll denigrate your subtle insults, and get down to the core part of my message:
Just because a program has more features does not mean it is better. What matters is how those features are laid out and how they are managed. In my experience, vBulletin's administrative interface is complex, cluttered, and hard to navigate through. phpBB 3 has a much better interface, in my experience.
Thanks for calling 'em subtle: I worried for a minute that I was too blatant. :P

And I guess that's just a matter of opinion. I can find things equally easily on either system, so I go by features alone. I suppose this would be different for some, however.
UseBB is small by design. It's already in release candidate stages, and it's designed to have few features. Gee, it must suck, then.
Yes. Yes it must. [/irony]

phpBB isn't though: so you don't have an excuse. That's what I was trying to say.
Commercially.
As I've said, I believe phpBB's team could make a living from donations, should they choose to accept them. Refusing ALL money is something that I find a tad ridiculous.
I'll gladly argue against it.
Go ahead, then. Argue. How would you start?
And phpBB Group is doing the same with phpBB.
Not fast enough.
From what I recall, phpBB has far more users.
Of course, because it's free. But there's a significant minority that uses either IPB or vBulletin, yes?
You're familiar with it.
But I wasn't at first.
Sorry. You lose. "Open source" says nothing about the price. phpBB group could charge you to download phpBB if they wanted.

Take a look at X-Chat, for example. It's under the GPL, but the Windows version is $20. There are other forked Windows versions, and they're perfectly legal.
By that argument, vBulletin is open-sourced, since you can edit the code. However, people would fiercely argue with that, especially here. I found that out a few months ago, the hard way. ^_^
For what market?
For the forum market. What else?
I use a spell-checker, but only because it is built-in to the browser.
Good for you. I don't need one, therefore making the fact that I too use Firefox a moot point.
How many users does it have? Does the spell-checker use a built-in dictionary or an external one? Is spell-checking on by default?
Not quite sure at the moment; built-in; yes.
I like it too, but I'm not complaining much. It's an incredibly easy modification to make.
Ah, but you see: I LIKE complaining. It excercises the mind. ^_^
I'll set the timer to see how long you last on this forum, then.
So you will ban me for calling idiots idiots? I DID warn them...

You are no better then the person you just replied to and is why we have these debates continuing because your stuck in the back when with a few other notable posters on this site and are trying to make the Majority suffer because of it. You want too little and he appears to want to much.

And if you notice i say MAJORITY because i RARELY ever see anyone else other then the SAME FEW here that keep saying they dont want this or that especially where QR is concerned. So the NEXT TIME you or one of the others decide to use that argument i suggest you get some numbers or other FACTS to prove your cases because i surely dont see it by the posts on this site especially where QR is concerned. Wink The only ones besides the few of you with a problem related to the QR for instance seems to be the developers which for them seem to be personal and nothing else. None of you all can back your statements with actuall facts and or numbers. So from now on let's avoid this argument by using the facts instead of supposed numbers that you few keep using that are wrong.
This is by its nature an argumentative thread. It's why we're containing ourselve to this small place, rather than invading the forum. It's a back-and-forth debate, and that's how it SHOULD be.
All I am gonna request from you guys ATM is this...
Please stop quoting posts 10 miles long! Mr. Green


I am not going to argue this(because I know I am right).
You can't compair phpBB to IPB of vB from a development or feature standpoint.
vB and IPB need features to stay alive. If they didn't try to please everyone, they wouldn't last very long as a forum, especially since they are charging for it.

Think of it this way, phpBB is something made by the developers for themselves and then they let anyone use it for no price at all. vB, IPB and any other commercial product(not the ones that charge a few bucks to help support them, the actual commercial ones) are made by the developers to make as many people happy as possible. Wink
Nicely said. I'm still arguing from my standpoint, though, just to see where this thread'll go. ;)
Regarding QR:

The way I understand it (and I'm hesitant to "speak for" the developers here, but this is what I remember the justification being...in any case, I hope they will correct me if I misrepresent anything), there is a belief (rightly or wrongly) that the QR feature has a tendency to encourage certain patterns of posts (like a new post made solely for the purpose of saying "++" or some other form of low-value content). Forcing users to take more actions is likely to reduce such tendencies. As developers of social software, the devs made the decision not to support that sort of feature.

You're welcome to buy that or not. I'm skeptical until I see some empirical data, but it doesn't sound outlandish to me, but then, that doesn't mean it's right.

The obvious tradeoff is that many people may not use the QR feature that way, and they enjoy the convenience it offers. Of course, for administrators that prefer to have the feature, there are mods that enable them to add it fairly trivially.
As was said, this is just a matter of opinion. I would like it in core, you wouldn't. There's no right or wrong, so let's drop this one: and argue about everything else. ^_^

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naderman
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Re: [Olympus] Has it failed already?

Post by naderman »

Alright that's enough. This topic clearly turned into flaming and trolling. Apart from not respecting the forum rules in the yellow box at the top of every page:
Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
this topic doesn't really have a point anymore (if it ever had one). If you want to discuss certain features of Olympus (e.g. permissions), do so in [Olympus] New features discussion (using one topic per feature, not all in one). If you keep it in a friendly tone and at a factual level you can even compare features to other boards there.

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