honestly..

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Discussion of general topics related to the new release and its place in the world. Don't discuss new features, report bugs, ask for support, et cetera. Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
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sirchmeister
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Re: honestly..

Post by sirchmeister »

Eric just beasted it.
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BillyBobBongo
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Re: honestly..

Post by BillyBobBongo »

Man, everywhere you go you see topics like this nowadays! Whether you're here at area51 or over at phpBB. I try my best to avoid posting a response as my opinion often gets reflected by those in the 'community' (dhn - ;) ) but this morning I thought I'd chuck in my two cents. The FREE software that we've all come to know and love is up for a rehaul and by the looks of things it's looking damn good so far. As with all businesses/projects faces change...people come and go...and their are peaks and troughs in productivity. It's normal!

I've been using phpBB for years now and I've had nothing but joy with it. I'm glad with my choice of bulletin board and will remain using for quite some time I'd imagine.

I found it down right rude that people are here and constantly bitching about a product that they're gonna to eventually be GIVEN! It drives me insane that there is a percentage of the community that acts like a spoiled 3 year old. Yes you have a right to voice your opinion but you also have to show some respect for those that make all of this possible....I can imagine it's tough enough for those involved juggling work, phpBB and most importantly their lives.

Patience is a virtue! Try it some time!
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sirchmeister
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Re: honestly..

Post by sirchmeister »

Yeah no kidding. Perfect analogy. You hire a babysitter (Babysitter = Developers) You expect them to treat your kids (Kids = Project) Good and with care. If they don't spoil you by letting you watch 10 hours of tv a day (10 releases a week) It doesn't matter as long as they keep you safe. (IE, fix security issues in a timely fashion) You have to remember that unlike babysitters these guys don't get paid.
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Re: honestly..

Post by FF8Jake »

wGEric wrote: Jake, I really don't see how the community can help with internal changes. The community doesn't know anything about how we run internally so how can they help make changes to it? Also there would be a rather large group of people that would only give critism without suggestions on how to fix it. That does not help. Most of the time we have already seen what needs to be fixed. There would also be a bunch of people that feel like his or her way is the only way and they are going to make sure they spend every waking minute making sure we know that. We don't need the peanut gallery giving their input on fixing internal issues.
Hmm, I can't say "yes we can" because yes, I don't know what happens internally (though I and a few others i'd imagine would like to find out a bit ^_^), and at the same time I can't say that "we can't help" because I don't know that either. I guess what i'm really asking for is a bit more communication, and overall more staff leadership with the things the community can help with (if as you said is only the community projects). People just tend to look up to members of the staff.
I agree that input on features that will be included in phpBB would be good to have from the community but how the project is ultimately ran is upto us, the phpBB Teams, not those that don't have a clue.
I agree that most of the users "don't have a clue" about how phpbb is made (due to lack of skills?), but ultimately it's the users who decide how phpbb is used, and the users are what phpbb is ultimately here for. I'm not saying let the community run it at all, all hell would break loose, but I would love to see some surveys popping around for things that have been controversial in the past (i.e. Quick Reply, or other features that were simply said "no" to by psoTFX). And then, at least the staff would know exactly what the userbase wants out of phpbb. Though the direction phpbb is ultimately up to the staff, I don't see the logic of pouring hard work into making something to be given, when it will turn out not quite what somebody wanted. Thankfully, modifications ease this problem a bit, but to a lot of users the modifications should (or rather, what people might think should) be standard features, and might hamper people updating when a new version is released.
If I was Paul, I probalby would have left a long time ago. Everyone here I'm sure would say that they are like stone and critism doesn't hurt them but subject yourself to it for years and years and eventually you will hate having to be around those people that are critcizing you. When a hobby isn't fun anymore (yes I'm saying phpBB is a hobby because none of us our paid to do it. We do it because we want to), why bother doing it?
I agree, as i've done so myself. After 3 years of running my own site I became burnt out and sold it. I don't regret it a bit, as I got what I needed out of it.
If we did do a weekly update or something like that for those that want it, they will still complain because there won't be anything in the updates. Its hard to write an update when there isn't a whole lot going on.
Hmm, maybe just make some highlights of the various new things going on with the community itself aside from development? Just the staff showing a bit of praise for the new modifications/styles/etc being released might help improve user contribution, at least. :)
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Acyd Burn
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Re: honestly..

Post by Acyd Burn »

sirchmeister wrote: Yeah no kidding. Perfect analogy. You hire a babysitter (Babysitter = Developers) You expect them to treat your kids (Kids = Project) Good and with care.
Since when it is your project. This analogy isn't one. ;)

I am not the person commenting such stuff, i rather do what i need to do and let the outcome speak for me, but i think some comments do not harm. :D

What i want to make clear (my position) is that phpBB 2.0.x is still a stable product and no one would care if there would be no next version in the work, because no one would know. I think the mistake made was the beginning of announcing the next version too early, creating a hype which is now "not wanted" in some respects. But still, the majority of users are not knowing about olympus and are very pleased with what they have, a stable, free, easy-to-use bulletin board. With the mods and styles created by the community users are able to adjust it to their needs (which would not be possible without those writing these things of course - and is one aspect of the success of phpBB).

Open Source does not stand for open development, to make this assumption is bringing comments like "why am i not able to provide a patch" up. You are not allowed because open source means does not mean you are allowed to code within "our" branch - people are able to make modifications, change the product, fork the product, etc. but it does not mean we have to take others code. ;) It is a general descission how you want to run your project, some do otherwise, some do the same as we, and both has its pros and cons.

At the moment the cons are of course visible, too few core developer for example, but this will be addressed. The community coding project is for us a possibility for recruiting new developers too, those currently participating are being watched for their "possible adding" - this should be clear to anyone with common sense. We do not add developers just because they "say" they can do it, they have to "show" that they can do it. ;) Paul made this experience a lot of times, and he also wrote about it lot of times - so i am not repeating this here.

Regarding the community wanting to dictate us how to run our teams - i simply ignore it. :) We know what needs to be done, what went wrong. And especially in my resort (development) i know that i will change some things to make it better (hopefully!), but this is a process and is not able to be put from day one on. These changes will only affect the 3.x development line, the 2.x development line will stay feature frozen (except security related features) for example.
but I would love to see some surveys popping around for things that have been controversial in the past (i.e. Quick Reply, or other features that were simply said "no" to by psoTFX). And then, at least the staff would know exactly what the userbase wants out of phpbb.
For some features we previously asked for input, now we tend to do this team internal (there are a bunch of users team-wide, also running their own communities) because of too much input (yes, too much). If you need to decide the way you want to go for a feature you need a rough path in mind and only need feedback for what you are unsure about or to grasp feedback from persons using a feature more than you (for example as a dev you would use the mcp not that much - but having feedback from moderators using it is essential to make it usable). Users are already able to discuss features (see the karma thread here). :)

Regarding controversial features, like the quick reply - guess what, we set the project outline, we set the features we want in and those we do not want in. Sometimes this is not based on what the userbase wants, it is based on what we want the project to be, this is the beauty of running a project in free time, as a hobby, you do not have to obey to your userbase (or customer would someone scream in). We have a huge responsability regarding support and fixes, of course, but not regarding future developments - we pressure us here enough. :D

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th23
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Re: honestly..

Post by th23 »

I can only agree with a lot of points you made...
Acyd Burn wrote: ...this is the beauty of running a project in free time, as a hobby, you do not have to obey to your userbase (or customer would someone scream in)....
...and - I think - nobody asks you (=developers/team leaders) to obey to what comes from the userbase, but honestly you should listen what the users prefer, because still the users/customers make the success of the project ;)
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dhn
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Re: honestly..

Post by dhn »

th23 wrote: ...and - I think - nobody asks you (=developers/team leaders) to obey to what comes from the userbase, but honestly you should listen what the users prefer, because still the users/customers make the success of the project ;)
Oh, we are listening to the users. How do you think it was decided which feature is going to be in phpBB 3.0? Just by rolling dice? Of course, we also have the opportunity, to give the project the direction we want it to take. This is why there is no quick reply, a feature we fear will turn a forum into a chatbox. This is why we won't add numerous features that will only benefit a small part of the community.

And don't forget that all members of the phpBB group are part of the community and were taken into the team because their dedication and abilities to help the project.
FF8Jake wrote: I guess what i'm really asking for is a bit more communication
I agree that this is something we can improve, and that we have to look into.
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smithy_dll
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Re: honestly..

Post by smithy_dll »

They have to save some features for MODifications :P

Users don't have an engineering/technical perspective that only a developer has. Concessions are made all the time, you think that $80 xyz you got was cheap, thats because it probably was, compared to the $1000 companies pay for professional versions of what you got.

It has been stated publically many times that phpBB will not be making concessions for features only a small minority will honestly use, where use cannot be measured by those who want. For example, there will be no calendar script or photo gallery embedded.

With regards to quick reply, it will be the first modification people will submit. It's almost a template thing if you are willing to go that far with it (you wouldn't get multi-lingual support, a requirement for MOD DB acceptance).

The aim of phpBB3 is to be innovative with just the right mix of features without cramming in the kitchen sink as they say.

I think the continued success of 2.0 despite it being "behind", is it's simplicity in terms of user experience (just the right mix of features to give the impression of alot to do, without there being too much). Even if you look at alexa and big-boards stats we are growing just as fast (faster in some stats) compared to our competitors. So if theres a slump, I'm not seeing it from independent third party observed statistics.
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th23
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Re: honestly..

Post by th23 »

dhn wrote: Oh, we are listening to the users. How do you think it was decided which feature is going to be in phpBB 3.0? Just by rolling dice?
Until Acid's post I wasn't really questioning that you do - and yes I know the feature tracker - but in his actual post it sounded somehow "we make our own decissions" in the end of his post.

I know do can do so (in first place)...but I just wanted to point out, that in the end (regardless wether its a paid board or an Open Source one or even a car or something else) always the user / customer is the one who decides...

just my 2 cents :roll:
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Acyd Burn
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Re: honestly..

Post by Acyd Burn »

th23 wrote:
dhn wrote: Oh, we are listening to the users. How do you think it was decided which feature is going to be in phpBB 3.0? Just by rolling dice?
Until Acid's post I wasn't really questioning that you do - and yes I know the feature tracker - but in his actual post it sounded somehow "we make our own decissions" in the end of his post.
I am sorry if this came the wrong way. Of course we listen to our userbase, as dhn said. But we are not forced to take all suggestions or demands. ;) We are able to weight opinions and collect many different ones too...
but I just wanted to point out, that in the end (regardless wether its a paid board or an Open Source one or even a car or something else) always the user / customer is the one who decides...
The final descission about what will be embedded and how it will be embedded is always on our side, of course. Or what will the user decide. He is a user if he found his way to us and decided that the product we have is what he/she needs, else the user would use another bulletin board software (which is absolutely fine, everyone has other needs).

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