Can't wait!

Discussion of general topics related to the new version and its place in the world. Don't discuss new features, report bugs, ask for support, et cetera. Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
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Discussion of general topics related to the new release and its place in the world. Don't discuss new features, report bugs, ask for support, et cetera. Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
dvduval
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Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:45 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by dvduval »

Hmmm....
50K divided by 24 months = $2000/month
And a single PR 9 link is worth $2000+ month, and we still haven't factored in Adsense. If I'm way off, then phpbb is way off what they could be earning. How many people are splitting the money? I see only 3 main coders in the CVS (making up 99% on the lines of code). If just 3 people shared 5 links a peice, that would be $10000/month each (still not counting Adsense). If you are not getting $2000/month per link, maybe its time you did a better job managing your advertising program.
SamG
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:35 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by SamG »

dvduval wrote: It's unfortunate that criticism is so frowned upon here. That may be the source of much of the problem itself....
When people's sole or majority contribution to an open source software project or Web community (of any sort) is limited to criticism, they risk appearing disingenuous, quite naturally. When somebody seems to assume otherwise, that reinforces the appearance, I think.
dvduval wrote: It it makes you feel better, call me drunk AND stupid, as I am willing to accept criticism.
Whatever your willingness to accept criticism, I'm inclined to think that being called drunk AND stupid here is a type of criticism you're more likely to blow off than accept/take to heart.
dvduval
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:45 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by dvduval »

Notice I did not critisize the contribution made by the developers.
I am being critical of the money, and of project management (my profession).

Surely, if a larger amount of money was raised, either more developers could have been brought in or more time could have been made available by the current team (probably the first).

And I am saying that $50,000/month should be quite easy to raise under the current setup of text links and adsense, not to mention donations and side jobs. So I am left with questions that I fear will probably never me answered, at least not publicly, though I hope they are being addressed privately.

1) With 15 text links on the PR 9 Homepage worth $2000 each, what is phpbb doing to best use that source of revenue? (17 counting subblue and Doreo)
2) There are many other text link ad positions throughout the site such as in the footer on the forums, as well has high PR pages like Downloads and Support. Those positions could be generating a few more thousand? How is that being handled?
3) Google Adsense: With 200 users online at any given time, phpbb is surely getting 100+ hits per hour. How is the Adsense program being managed?
4) With all of the above being managed properly, how can phpbb better manage the development schedule and remain competitive?

I am not here to criticize any individual, and believe there has been some wonderful work done here. I was a fairly long time member of the Snitz community, and I saw that one slowly lose share, as they failed to release new versions, and I am concerned about phpbb now.
SamG
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:35 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by SamG »

In a small open-source project like phpBB, where team members of all kinds wear many hats, it's virutally impossible to separate the developers from the project managers if in no other sense than that phpBB.com is run by open-source software developers, not by professional project managers.

So to charge, as you have, that phpBB.com clearly mismanages its ad space is yet another shot, even if indirectly, not at phpBB.com as a business, but as an open-source software project. Perhaps you didn't intend it that way, but that's how it looks to the relative handful of people that are phpBB Group. They can't maintain a proper schedule, they are giving away ad space -- on and on it goes.

I think even you would object if every time you posted here somebody said, "Pay no attention to him, he's drunk AND stupid." Do you see what I'm driving at?
dvduval
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:45 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by dvduval »

I apprecieate you even recognizing me, and responding, so thanks for your comments.

If I understand correctly, are you saying phpbb is pretty much giving away the text link ad space that could be generating thousands? Maybe it would be worth re-examining this part of the phpbb program. I'm sure the people receiving the links are benefiting greatly. There is a big difference between giving the software away for free, and giving away something that could provide a huge increase in the ability to make that very software better.

Maybe its time the developers stop giving away their time, and instead are paid properly for this wonderful product, since the money is available for the taking. And if they are paid properly, maybe the dev schedule will be moved along much more quickly. Give them all a $2000/month raise. One text link on the homepage will do that just fine. ;)
SamG
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:35 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by SamG »

As a former member of the moderator team, I didn't have access to the details of the ad program, so I can't speak to that with specifics.

But I can say (or repeat what others have already said) that the whole ad thing came up, was considered carefully, and was supported by the teams on the basis that the ad revenue would offset fixed costs over the long haul. As psoTFX mentioned, anything left over after that priority is met is optionally distributed among team members essentially as "pop money," as I understand it.

phpBB's founder is absolutely opposed to the idea of phpBB.com being revenue-generating in any business-oriented sense of that term, hence no real emphasis on that aspect of phpBB.com. If they are getting screwed over by advertisers because they aren't trying to make any money, I suppose that's a bad thing. But neither James nor Paul are willing to turn phpBB commercial, so bringing things to the point where there are paid staff positions seems unlikely.

phpBB is open-source and non competitive. It's done for pleasure. The ever-steeper technology curve compounds the work without compounding the pleasure necessarily, but the project moves forward on that basis.
dvduval
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:45 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by dvduval »

phpBB's founder is absolutely opposed to the idea of phpBB.com being revenue-generating in any business-oriented sense of that term, hence no real emphasis on that aspect of phpBB.com. If they are getting screwed over by advertisers because they aren't trying to make any money, I suppose that's a bad thing. But neither James nor Paul are willing to turn phpBB commercial, so bringing things to the point where there are paid staff positions seems unlikely.
Yes, but the fact is they already have a program is place that makes money, namely Adsense and text link ads. Without changing anything except what they charge for text links, they should have no problem bringing in 50K/month.

Where in the manual does it say open source = we shouldnot be paid when out project is successful?
SamG
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:35 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by SamG »

As I said, in the phpBB manual. The founder is opposed to commercializing phpBB. The buck stops there.

If they already have program in place that you think should be generating revenue it isn't, that doesn't at all change the fact that the program in place isn't there to generate the revenue you think it should.
dvduval
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Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:45 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by dvduval »

The it seems we have the following:
1) There is a simple method to generate excellent revenue already in place
2) Advertisers are being given thousands of dollars in text link ads for free
3) Developers are working for free (or maybe a little "pop" money)

Something does not add up here, and I think we don't have all the facts, but I sadly I think it is the developers that are not getting everything they deserve. I don't know whether it is the ownership or the advertisers that are benefiting the most financially, as we don't have all the facts, but something seems strange here.

If you question the worth of the text link ads on the phpbb site, I invite you to call a company like Text Link Ads or Text Link Brokers. I would be extremely surprised if these ads are being given at no charge.
SamG
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:35 pm

Re: Can't wait!

Post by SamG »

I don't know of any missing facts. I'm not saying there aren't any, but I don't know of any.

It's not written anywhere that we have to agree with James' and Paul's refusal to turn phpBB commercial. We are entirely free to vow we would never make the same decision. We are entirely free to argue that they should leverage phpBB.com's ad value to maximum benefit to phpBB. But I don't see what any of that has to do with anything in the real world. phpBB is a non commercial, non competitive, open-source project that exists for and at the pleasure of phpBB Group. It's that simple, so far as I know.
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