Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Discussion of general topics related to the new version and its place in the world. Don't discuss new features, report bugs, ask for support, et cetera. Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
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Discussion of general topics related to the new release and its place in the world. Don't discuss new features, report bugs, ask for support, et cetera. Don't use this to spam for other boards or attack those boards!
BjoKa
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by BjoKa »

Hi!

(First-time post here, please be patient and ignore all spelling errors.)
SamG wrote:People are always free to fork phpBB and make it better in less time. So far, interestingly enough, despite all the vocal complaints, there have been no takers so far as I know.
Well, forking phpBB would be a "bad thing"(tm) to do IMHO. A forum software is by definition something exposed to all the bad guys out there in the net. Better phpBB stays under the controll and carefull testing of the developer team. They hopefully know, what they are doing ....


But ....

What about contributing patches?

Hmm while working on this post someone was faster. :)
SamG wrote:The developers are not in the habit of accepting patches at any time, but they will be interested in constructive criticism during the beta and RC cycles.

So the answer is "No!" :cry:
Anyway at least the second next paragraph is still valid, I think.


I have intalled the CVS-Version on a test site about two weeks ago. I had some minor issues (not counting the nice gift in common.php) but after adding some smaller fixes to the PHP-code it worked very nice. There are still a lot of open ends, empty functions or conditionals (you know way better than I :) ) -- but that is what I expect from CVS code. (Currently I am working on an import of an 2.0.6 test-board (100000 posts) to do some real-world benchmarks, but it is difficult because some parts of 2.2 seem to disagree on the meaning of two database fields.)


Unfortunately, as I understand the forum rules here, I am not allowed to share my findings with anybody. And that is something I can't understand because it contradict my understanding of OSS: "play around, think about it, code something, and contribute your ideas, new code and fixes".

Well enough on that, you phpBB developers clearly have the right to set the rules for your project, therefore I will follow your rules and do not post my findings here or else where. I hope, someday I will understand your reasons. Why do all the hard work alone, why deny help, why give up what OSS is about: people helping eachother to make great software?

Anyway, yes, Happy Birthday phpBB 2.2!
Yea, Happy Birthday phpBB 2.2! Let's hope your parents teached you everything you will need on your way out to the real world. Whish you a long and healthy life.


BjoKa
__________
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. -- Voltaire 1694 - 1778

Martin Blank
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by Martin Blank »

BjoKa wrote:Well, forking phpBB would be a "bad thing"(tm) to do IMHO. A forum software is by definition something exposed to all the bad guys out there in the net. Better phpBB stays under the controll and carefull testing of the developer team.
Everytime someone mods their forum, they're essentially forking it, because the codebase is no longer purely that of phpBB. Numerous other projects have been forked because someone was missing, or because someone felt they could do a better job (for example, CPG-Nuke forked off of php-Nuke).
What about contributing patches?
If you find something that's broken in a release version, then I'm sure the devs would like to know about it, along with suggested methods of dealing with it. They may not implement your code, but they're not above using someone else's code if it works (and, of course, they provide credit).
Unfortunately, as I understand the forum rules here, I am not allowed to share my findings with anybody. And that is something I can't understand because it contradict my understanding of OSS: "play around, think about it, code something, and contribute your ideas, new code and fixes".
Once the software has been released as a beta, the support will open up, and such things can be discussed. Until then, if you have friends with whom you would like to discuss your fixes, you're free to do so, as long as it's not done here, nor linked to from here. It's not uncommon during major development cycles for programmers to stop people from sending in code, because the code is in a major state of flux.

SamG
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by SamG »

BjoKa wrote:... Well, forking phpBB would be a "bad thing"(tm) to do IMHO....
Perhaps so. Nevertheless, those who feel they can do a better job at phpBB development are free to do so. People are a little frustrated about the course of phpBB 2.2 development, and I can understand that. But at the same time, I know that the developers are doing the best they can, and we as a community can either accept the situation as it stands or we (or some of us) can fork phpBB and do it better. Ongoing complaining within the community, I should point out, is not one of the options I outlined. :)
BjoKa wrote:But .... What about contributing patches? ... Unfortunately, as I understand the forum rules here, I am not allowed to share my findings with anybody. And that is something I can't understand because it contradict my understanding of OSS: "play around, think about it, code something, and contribute your ideas, new code and fixes".
While phpBB has always been an OSS project, it's never been a community project in the sense that the community writes phpBB. Certainly some OSS projects do operate that way, but not all, and phpBB is among those that don't.

Now, when it comes to a released version of phpBB, people are free to contribute, even outside conventional "MODs." The main phpBB forums, for example, include various bits of code and/or ideas for everything from SEO to optimizations for large forums. I think that's all very much in the OSS spirit.

I do understand what you're trying to say, but it's my impression that phpBB will continue for the foreseeable future to be developed by a team of people designated as its developers and that community contributions to phpBB will continue along the lines they currently take. This helps to keep phpBB as a focused concept on track, if nothing else - a real need when it comes to something as "vague" and fluid as the idea of "discussion software."
"I hate trolls!" - Willow Ufgood

Cloudane
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by Cloudane »

Personally I think it's a terrible shame that people aren't even allowed to *discuss* ways to improve the software, potential code contributions etc.

It's obvious that the developer(s) have little/no time to develop this new version and although it's free, I believe that when you release something so widely used or looked forward to, you should at least take some responsibility for it. Even if it means "sorry, development has stopped, please feel free to fork the code". At least people would know where they stand. As it is, area 51 is living up to its name... anyone who goes near has a gun held to their head and everything inside is top secret. Nobody knows whether even a beta will be 2 weeks or 2 decades away from now, and that's why they're frustrated. Something like "We currently estimate 2 years", whilst not ideal, would still be an improvement.

And don't spout that "It'll be done when it's done" rubbish - that's *very* poor project management IMO. If you don't have some sort of timeline to at least try and aim for (ever heard of a gantt chart??) then I don't think it will ever get finished because you'll just spend year after year procrastinating.

The ideal situation would be "we need help, please contribute code and we'll look it over. If we like it, we will implement it". Why struggle alone if you chose an OSS license? Or are you one of those developers who chose OSS because it was "cool" and are now facing the consequences because you wanted it to be closed but never studied the license before choosing to use it? Perhaps you want to charge for the software too and are frustrated because OSS discourages it (I'm thinking of Smoothwall as an example here, and the nut job who runs / used to run that and flamed anyone who didn't pay)

As it is now, nobody knows which is going to come first - phpbb2.2 or Duke Nukem Forever. I suspect most people are in the same category as me: they don't believe either of them are even in development at all, or they're being developed so slowly that they keep having to rewrite as new hardware / support software (e.g. php) are released each time. To use a Brit term, perhaps it's like painting the Forth Bridge. By the time you get to the end, what you did at the start is out of date and you have to start repainting it again.

And before you have a go at me for complaining, think about what it means. It means I (and many others) like your creation with a great deal of passion and simply want to see it succeed.

Roberdin
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by Roberdin »

Cloudane wrote:As it is now, nobody knows which is going to come first - phpbb2.2 or Duke Nukem Forever. I suspect most people are in the same category as me: they don't believe either of them are even in development at all, or they're being developed so slowly that they keep having to rewrite as new hardware / support software (e.g. php) are released each time.
I've just recieved a phpBB-Checkin Report, listing a change to viewtopic.php. Development may be slow, but they know what they're doing. They did go through a period when they allowed other developers to help out - the code they produced is still causing problems on the 2.0.x line today.
Rob

Cloudane
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by Cloudane »

All the more reason to check it through before committing it, I'd have thought. Nobody said code contributions would reduce the time/effort to 0... they'd merely reduce the time/effort required by removing the requirement to actually write the code. The rest of it.. careful thinking and analysis.. is still there.

That's how I see it anyway, I'd be happy to be proved wrong :)

BjoKa
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by BjoKa »

Hi!
Cloudane wrote:Personally I think it's a terrible shame that people aren't even allowed to *discuss* ways to improve the software, potential code contributions etc.

It's obvious that the developer(s) have little/no time to develop this new version and although it's free, I believe that when you release something so widely used or looked forward to, you should at least take some responsibility for it. Even if it means "sorry, development has stopped, please feel free to fork the code".
Your are not fair here!

The devs do take responsibility, and development has not stopped. (Last CVS-checkin is from yesterday). When you look at the code, it is obvious that they prepare a real masterpiece of software, both in terms of design and in terms of implementation.

May be, they take to much responsibility by denying contribution of time and code.

At least people would know where they stand. As it is, area 51 is living up to its name... anyone who goes near has a gun held to their head and everything inside is top secret. Nobody knows whether even a beta will be 2 weeks or 2 decades away from now, and that's why they're frustrated. Something like "We currently estimate 2 years", whilst not ideal, would still be an improvement.
I nobody knows when it will be finished. If I should guess, I would say early spring of 2005, but I am pretty sure I am wrong.

The ideal situation would be "we need help, please contribute code and we'll look it over. If we like it, we will implement it".
That line above is exactly what I think.
I know, "adding man power to a late project makes it later", but that is not always true. It is true if adding man power involes teaching or supporting the new co-workers. But fixing small problems (like a ">=" that should read "<=" somewhere in the bbcode stuff, or an overwritten variable in user-mangement) can be done without support. All this "hard to find, but easy to fix once found" kind of things.

But this here ... :
Why struggle alone if you chose an OSS license? Or are you one of those developers who chose OSS because it was "cool" and are now facing the consequences because you wanted it to be closed but never studied the license before choosing to use it? Perhaps you want to charge for the software too and are frustrated because OSS discourages it (I'm thinking of Smoothwall as an example here, and the nut job who runs / used to run that and flamed anyone who didn't pay)
... makes me angry. Why do you insult people you don't even know? I am sure you are wrong if you think the dev-team has "bad plans" about phpBBs future. This type of crying does not help here.

phpBB 2.2 is a complicated piece of software, it will run on numberless servers right at the "front line" to all those bad guys trying to hack computers. Developing such a thing requieres well-done design and carefull implementation. That is nothing you can do in a hurry!


BjoKa
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. -- Voltaire 1694 - 1778
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Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -- source unknown

NeoThermic
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by NeoThermic »

Cloudane wrote:Personally I think it's a terrible shame that people aren't even allowed to *discuss* ways to improve the software, potential code contributions etc.
Why? Its not a beta yet. Its a CVS. As soon as it reaches beta, you'll be able to have your say in what should be there. Until then, rules stand.
Cloudane wrote:And don't spout that "It'll be done when it's done" rubbish - that's *very* poor project management IMO. If you don't have some sort of timeline to at least try and aim for (ever heard of a gantt chart??) then I don't think it will ever get finished because you'll just spend year after year procrastinating.
There is a timeline. Its not public. Why? Because if real life kicks up for the devs, and a target slipps a few weeks, then its ok. Else we would have people such as you complain about it and assume that nothing will come out of 2.2
Cloudane wrote:The ideal situation would be "we need help, please contribute code and we'll look it over. If we like it, we will implement it". Why struggle alone if you chose an OSS license? Or are you one of those developers who chose OSS because it was "cool" and are now facing the consequences because you wanted it to be closed but never studied the license before choosing to use it? Perhaps you want to charge for the software too and are frustrated because OSS discourages it (I'm thinking of Smoothwall as an example here, and the nut job who runs / used to run that and flamed anyone who didn't pay)
Its OSS because its free. Since its free, its open. OSS != having to accept contrib code. You know that, so why bring it up?

And as for the comment about the fact that we want to charge for it... I'm not even going to touch that one, but you're bordering a hell of alot there. The whole point of phpBB is a free, opensource BB. Thats what you have got, and thats what it will continue to be. phpBB will *never* become charged.
Cloudane wrote:As it is now, nobody knows which is going to come first - phpbb2.2 or Duke Nukem Forever. I suspect most people are in the same category as me: they don't believe either of them are even in development at all, or they're being developed so slowly that they keep having to rewrite as new hardware / support software (e.g. php) are released each time. To use a Brit term, perhaps it's like painting the Forth Bridge. By the time you get to the end, what you did at the start is out of date and you have to start repainting it again.
Ye of little faith will be shown up by the return.

NeoThermic
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Cloudane
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by Cloudane »

The intention is not to insult anybody or suggest they have "bad" plans. I apologise if what I wrote comes across that way.

As a genuine and peaceful question though it still stands. (Edit: A reply has been snuck in above which answers this, so go ahead and ignore!) Whilst I'm sure they do know what they're doing, I've seen examples where developers have chosen an OSS license through misconceptions - heck, some are probably pushed into it through 'nagging' from OSS advocates. I know how pushy they can be. It doesn't mean that the developers are stupid, or greedy, or anything negative.. sometimes it just happens.

I also owe an apology, as pointed out, for being unfair on the points about taking responsibility (for which I meant to the users, not the code). Sometimes as an outsider it's just so frustrating not knowing anything of the progress other than the infamous "when it's done". Whilst I'm well aware that the developers owe us (users) nothing and users owe them a great deal for their excellent work, I do feel it would be especially nice - not owed, just nice - for the users to be kept up to date.

Part of it is the big OSS debate of whether you should rely upon it. Once users rely on a piece of software and rely on the fact that their requirements will be met in the next version, it seems there are two camps: those that believe you shouldn't rely upon anything unless it's commercially bought and under a contract, and those that want people (and businesses) to be able to rely upon OSS completely. I'm in the latter group which is why I started spouting about responsibility towards users, but I do realise that whilst ideal, it is unfair especially if you aren't paying for it.

I genuinely hope I'm proven wrong in the lack of faith. 2 years of "beta real soon now" can do that ;)
Last edited by Cloudane on Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Uchiha Nick
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Re: Happy Birthday 2.2!!!

Post by Uchiha Nick »

cloudane wrote:Personally I think it's a terrible shame that people aren't even allowed to *discuss* ways to improve the software, potential code contributions etc.
uhm.. how can you discuss something that isn't even done? if some peeps go complaining about something that's in development that's going to *beep* of the developers. also, like i said everything is still under development and that means it isnt finished. how can you know what they are going to add?

also, i dont know how phpBB thinks about discussion via PM ( of course normal members and not the developers ) but that's a way to do IF it is aloud.

third, if you don't like it, write your own forum software or use another software that does alow it.

lastly, i have been reading a bunch of topics here lateley, and to be honest im surprised the dev team hasn't stopped this project because of all the complains.

and well.. happy birthday!
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