[YES] Test environement

[Ptirhiik]

Ok, here is the tip. Easymod presents a danger you can't ignore, letting think people installing a mod is no danger for a board, and is a common operation. This of course is not acceptable, and would be in some way lying to the users (they would be able to really too easely screw their board).


Most of not advanced users even don't know how to setup a minimal test environement. I think so it would be somehow a need for easymod to allow to setup such a thing, and to handle it during an installation (btw, it will also solved the problem of restoring before the last one). I think the database part can be avoid, as I don't now mods deleting a field, and only the phpbb dirs would be enough to perform a solid test.

Of course, this could be only an option, but I think this would be in some sort criminal to not set it .

[AlleyKat]

A message to these extents would fit in nicely where the user is supposed to enter EasyMOD access password.

(Ducks to avoid the 'remember-password'-discussion)
IMO EM should ask a pass every time. Sure, I got bugged by it too, when theres a lot of work on a single MOD, but it's the safe way. EasyMOD isn't just a for-fun-script, this is serious s.... stuff.

[Nuttzy99]

Easymod presents a danger you can't ignore, letting think people installing a mod is no danger for a board, and is a common operation. This of course is not acceptable, and would be in some way lying to the users (they would be able to really too easely screw their board).

I actually think EM is a heck of a lot safer than this. If you mean the MODs are the problem then yes, that could be an issue if the MOD is not sufficiently tested. However, there really is no difference between this and a poorly written MOD that you are installing by hand.

But, for the record, a preview mode is already planned so this should be exactly what you are looking for

-Nuttzy

[Ptirhiik]

It depends what you are calling "preview" : if it allows to perform an full extensive test on the result without impacting the live environement, ok, this is what I'm talking about, if it is only view the sources after the modifications, no, it is not.

The danger is settled in the fact than a non-advanced user today will hesitate before installing a mod, because he is not sure of what he will do, which is indeed a very good thing. Easymod can give the feel that any mod is undangerous for the board, even stacking mods, and this natural protection against savage modding won't be present. From then, the risk of having functional conflicting mods raise a level too high to ignore it, and at least a test board can't be avoid in this process. But if a user haven't enough knowlegde to determine a mod can be functionaly conflicting with an other, he won't be able to build a proper test environement, and the way easymod is builded today, you encourage installing mods on a living environnement...

[Nuttzy99]

The preview is only for viewing source so I guess that is not what you are looking for.

Yes, I do think there should be a warning that should state that MODs can screw up the functioning of the board. However if something does go wrong they can always restore backups or use the uninstall feature (that will be coming). The important thing will be that after each MOD installation that you make sure your board is working well before moving on to the next MOD.

But honestly, the MODs that have been around for a while are tried and true and people will not really need to be worrying too much about them

-Nuttzy

[Nuttzy99]

Also, if a user is that concerned about it the they can first install on a test board before installing on their live board.

-Nuttzy

[Ptirhiik]

However if something does go wrong they can always restore backups(../..)

Ah, I hate this kind of thinking ! - No, stoping a service has to be considered as a last solution, when none other can be applied. So from there, doing it, screwing all and restoring is not a good way to proceed regarding visitors of a board (this will involve also some database issues).

There we are talking about users who doesn't even know how editing a file, that will be wrongly driven to easymod, making them feeling all is perfect in a perfect world. Most of them won't be able to settle a test environnement, that's why I think it has to be handled in some sort of way by easymod, in order to prevent users to screw their living environnement. I'm sure you always work like this, I always do, and most of the advanced users do also. But there, easymod is designed to open the wold of modding boards to a wider panel of people, so this has to be considered. And I'm not talking only about poor quality of mods : here I'm talking about functional comflicts, even between high quality mods.

[Nuttzy99]

We are fundamentally different on something. You think EM will be convenient but not ready for life forums. I think it will be ready for live forums b/c it will have the backing of the MOD Authoring community. phpBB.com is going to support EMC. phpbbhacks.com has said they will as well.

Most problems will be caught by EM before any changes to a live board happen. The odds of code getting inserted into the wrong spot are relatively small. When installing a MOD by hand you have to trust the MOD author and this is no different with EM. At least EM will have a nice way for getting you out of a mess.

-Nuttzy

[Ptirhiik]

(../..)You think EM will be convenient but not ready for life forums.(../..)

No, you didn't understand my point : I think no modifications, whatever is it or whatever tool is used (it is not a matter of tools), has to be applied to a live environnement before an entire test stage on a test environement. Even then, a full backup has to be performed.
Willing to use easymod as an on-live process is just getting people to very bad situations easymod won't be able to solve (remember I also talking about database issues), and which can be - at least have to be - avoid. For sure I will never advice someone to perform any modifications live on their board without having first a test period, or I will just be stupid and criminal. I just hope you don't plan to advice users to use easymod on a live environnement without this test stage.

[AlleyKat]

Well I think you have a basic difference in your views of this, but mostly b/c Ptirhiik foresees the growing problem of unauthorized and badly written scripts and Nuttzy sees this from the stable-phpbb-and-authorized-mods point of view. I happen to be on Ptirhiiks side in the never-go-live-till-tested. Another point in that - would it be possible to require the board to be closed before installation?

But you both agree on that more and clearer warning should be given to users, good. Even that things generally should be tested in a non-live environment. I can't wait to see more of this preview-stuff, that will make modding even easier.

I did a rather long post on the file management and several-pass run-throughs last night, but the server 404'ed me so I just gave up and shut down in frustration and I'm heading for bed, so I think you'll survive w/o my 2 cents on that. Anyway some of it was, by Nuttzys calculation-method, up to G20 or something anyway

I'm really looking forward to phpbb 2.2 with that hardcoded adminpanel - I find the admin parts always giving me the most trouble.