Defining a New Default Theme

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hanakin
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Defining a New Default Theme

Post by hanakin » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:47 pm

********NOTE THIS IS AN OLD TOPIC THAT I WILL EVENTUALLY REPLACE****************

I will eventually work on a new version of this but for now I think this should mitigate a lot of duplication of effort and discussion.
I have left all the linked topics in the other forum as I do not want to have to re-link everything and create more clutter than needs to be in this forum

******************************************************************************************

Their have been several topics discussing the need for a new or re-designed theme and the consensus seems to be that it is necessary for many reasons. The problem is that these topics tend to just turn into stale debates on weather to use a specific framework or workflow. The fact of the matter is if we want a new or re-designed theme, then we need to define exactly what it is we need.

Their are several minor/major debates or discussions that need to take place to answer a lot of questions. I have tried to capture as many as I could but if you have any that I have left out just let me know so that I can update this topic.

It is probably a better idea that some of these happen in their own topics as their are a lot of them here and could potentially drive their own RFC, so to facilitate this I will link the questions to a corresponding topic once its created.

With this in mind please refrain from full-out discussions within this topic about individual questions and instead discuss what questions are needed or not needed.

Lets take one at a time to knock these out in straight forward manner to provide better tracking as well for RFCs and keep in mind the scope of this is not any specific deadline or release but ongoing until all is said and complete.

Status Chart
PR in Progress
Merged

The Requirements:
  1. The theme should use normalize/SUIT base to handle its resets.
  2. Need to establish a grid system and adere to it.
  3. We need to use a pre-processor such as LESS or which ever is decided upon.
  4. Css/JS/Fonts/Images need to be separated into their own folders labeled as such under an assets folder for better organization and consistency
  5. Theme creation should happen in its own repo to be merged upon completion
  6. Adopt a mobile first approach to the design to ensure the best possible theme for each breakpoint.
  7. Allow for responsive removal of content from view(IE some features that be beneficial on desktop really are not necessary or important on mobile).
  8. Utilize Font Awesome icons where icons are needed to simplify server requests.
  9. The css/js that is served and cached should be minified/compressed/gzipped.
  10. HTML needs to be semantic and follow best practices utilizing HTML5 when possible.
  11. Proper use of ajax calls to render specific content.
  12. In-Depth Design study on each block of content based on semantics, responsiveness, and usability .
  13. All JS needs to be completely abstracted from the template files.
  14. Template files need re-broken out into major files and included files for better organization and cleaner codebase(Componentized).
  15. The css needs broken out into components and elements for easier maintainability and portability.
  16. Better consistency & standards across the theme need to be created and enforced.
  17. Completely remove all generated HTML from the core.
  18. Finish converting front facing files to symfony controllers/routers.
  19. Clean up and streamline templating variables.
  20. Drop full support for IE 8.
  21. UI/UX chnage suggestions.
  22. Eventually re-design Admin Theme to reflect new theme changes.
That should do for know I will update this as new questions arise.

Let the discussions begin
Last edited by hanakin on Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:39 pm, edited 26 times in total.

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Master_Cylinder
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Re: Defining a New Default Theme

Post by Master_Cylinder » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:04 pm

One problem in the other debates wasn't which frameworks to use, it was whether to redo Prosilver or start a whole new theme. According to EXreaction no NEW theme would replace PS right away but according to DavidIQ we won't have two themes competing.

The question that is needed is; which is it going to be? Is it a whole *new* theme that will compete with PS until PS is retired or is it just changes to the existing PS theme. That's what has to be *defined* first since that was much of the more recent debates.
These kids today...
Buy them books, send them to school and what do they do?

They eat the paste. :lol:

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hanakin
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Re: Defining a New Default Theme

Post by hanakin » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:19 pm

you are incorrect and lack prior knowledge, as you have missed all the debates in the prior yrs. You are also as you have stated not a developer or a designer for which this is specifically geared to. The consensus being exactly what I stated. A new theme is needed and it is understood by everyone except you apparently for development and design"er" reasons. Know as I clearly stated in the original post please refrain from discussing topics in this thread only respond and discuss what topics needed discussed. Thks

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Master_Cylinder
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Re: Defining a New Default Theme

Post by Master_Cylinder » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:27 pm

I said recent. :roll:

The question is needed (and valid) whether you like it or not.
These kids today...
Buy them books, send them to school and what do they do?

They eat the paste. :lol:

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brunoais
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Re: Defining a New Default Theme

Post by brunoais » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:14 pm

hanakin wrote:2.We need to use a pre-processor such as LESS or which ever is decided upon.
I think you are wrong. Using such thing is not a "need", it's a "commodity". It's something that helps, not something that is essential.
Additionally about LESS (and such):
viewtopic.php?f=108&t=42665
hanakin wrote:5. All JS needs to be completely abstracted from the template files.
What do you mean? Really full abstraction is impossible. You can get on a certain good level like the ajaxification but other things are very intrinsic to the theme itself.
hanakin wrote:7.The css/js that is served and cached should be minified/compressed/gzipped.
What's the difference from "minified" and "compressed"?
It is already gzipped if you activate the appropriate option in the server. Anyway, it can be gzipped when it is processed in, for example, assetic (suggested in the link above)
hanakin wrote:8.Theme should be managed as its own project and only major stable versions should be included in the PHPBB project from there on.
Are you sure on what you are proposing? On most projects I have ever known the default theme is part of the project.
hanakin wrote:16.Adopt a mobile first approach to the design to ensure the best possible theme for each breakpoint.
Mobile first is one of the largest BS things I've seen happening. You can never do anything actually decent by doing that. The best way to go is to make for coarse AND precise pointers at the same time with their correct relevancy.
Unlike whatever some people can think of, doing things in a mobile-first website is as annoying to desktop as it is the other way around (mobile in a "desktop" website). This may not be a global decision but almost all people who I deal almost every day agrees on this statement, including me.
People with fine pointer want more information and want "acceptably" small stuff that allows having more info in the screen at any time (zoom is not really an option).
People with a coarse pointer want larger stuff to make it easier to click (or touch), select and do whatever stuff (in detriment of the amount of information at any given point)
hanakin wrote:17.Allow for responsive removal of content from view.
Yes, that is an option to take. Still, sometimes. the best option to take is just to change the size and shape of some elements
hanakin wrote:18.Establish server side detection of browser size to allow for prevention content to be rendered.
What does that mean? How do you plan on doing that? Why do you need to do that?

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PayBas
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Re: Defining a New Default Theme

Post by PayBas » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:21 pm

brunoais wrote:
hanakin wrote:7.The css/js that is served and cached should be minified/compressed/gzipped.
What's the difference from "minified" and "compressed"?
It is already gzipped if you activate the appropriate option in the server. Anyway, it can be gzipped when it is processed in, for example, assetic (suggested in the link above)
Here he/she does have a point: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8071 ... es#tab-top
brunoais wrote:
hanakin wrote:18.Establish server side detection of browser size to allow for prevention content to be rendered.
What does that mean? How do you plan on doing that? Why do you need to do that?
As far as I know, this almost never works, because most methods use user-agents (which are known to be unreliable). So having a responsive back-end seems like much more trouble than it's worth.
15. Revamp Index layout to allow faster access to content.
This seems very arbitrary. Different boards will want to implement this is various ways. Unless we have some solid new ideas I think this is the domain of extensions.

And as long as we are talking about a completely new style, we might as well use semantics.

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hanakin
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Re: Defining a New Default Theme

Post by hanakin » Thu May 01, 2014 4:45 am

again this is an example of why I want to discuss all of these in separate topics.. too much to discuss here. also do not take these questions as opinions, just meant to spark discussion and if you wait for the full posts then you will get more in-depth break-downs of the proposal with my opinions to fully discuss

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brunoais
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Re: Defining a New Default Theme

Post by brunoais » Thu May 01, 2014 6:16 am

Ok, I'll wait and then ask again.

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keith10456
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Re: Defining a New Default Theme

Post by keith10456 » Fri May 02, 2014 2:12 pm

For starters, great post. I think a lot of the questions/issues you raised should be discussed (if not already).
Master_Cylinder wrote:One problem in the other debates wasn't which frameworks to use, it was whether to redo Prosilver or start a whole new theme. According to EXreaction no NEW theme would replace PS right away but according to DavidIQ we won't have two themes competing.

The question that is needed is; which is it going to be? Is it a whole *new* theme that will compete with PS until PS is retired or is it just changes to the existing PS theme. That's what has to be *defined* first since that was much of the more recent debates.
Master_Cylinder wrote:I said recent. :roll:

The question is needed (and valid) whether you like it or not.
I think it is a valid question. I for one am still unsure as to the answer. Though I doubt at this point that PS will be completely replaced for 3.1 but are more improvements going to be made to the framework (of PS)?

I'm not a coder or a designer but I could imagine that further improvements to the framework would open the door for better looking and more user friendly themes (for the admin and the member/visitor). Personally, I would be one happy man when admins could finally (easily) customize the overall_header (besides adding a logo or website name/description).

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Olivier C
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Re: Defining a New Default Theme

Post by Olivier C » Sat May 10, 2014 6:18 pm

Hello,

I'm French. I do not know English and I correspond with you using Google Translate ...

I am interested in phpBB3 recent weeks. I observed failures default themes (prosilver). For some days I want a solution to propose a new default theme for phpBB. Why not using a framework such as bootstrap ?

PS: Personally, I am working to adapt my personal framework for phpBB3.0.12 (css grid, sass, html5, metadata, responsive design, etc.), and it does not work so bad.

Examples of some pages online (the project theme is under construction).

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