[Rejected] Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

These RFCs were either rejected or have been replaced by an alternative proposal. They will not be included in phpBB.
Post Reply

Remove subsilver2?

Yes, remove it completely
49
69%
Just remove it from the package, but provide official download and support for 3.1
17
24%
Other / Undecided
5
7%
 
Total votes: 71

User avatar
nickvergessen
Former Team Member
Posts: 733
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:54 am
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Contact:

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by nickvergessen » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:07 pm

Arty and you are forgetting one major factor - user's wish.

Did you ever ask user's why they don't update their board? I think with complete abandonment of subsilver2, you will not force the users to switch to prosilver. You will force them to stay on the old version and that is not, what we developers and phpbb community want.

That is also one reason why we decided to still maintain the package but dont include it into the core install package anymore. We can satisfy old users, because we still have updates for them, and new users are not pushed to subsilver2, because it is not available by default anymore.
Member of the Development-TeamNo Support via PM

User avatar
rxu
Registered User
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by rxu » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:35 pm

Unknown Bliss wrote:In fact, if subsilver2 is dropped then the only thing that will impact me personally will be I won't add subsilver2 support to my extensions and it will maybe save me some development time if I fix a bug - all positive.
Well, actually it won't save you any significant amount of time if you really provide quality support for your extension (and you know it if you did it before), because you'll face the users' requests on adding support for the custom styles in your extension, including subsilver2 (I'm pretty sure that after removing it completely it will continue its life as a custom style).
So, this is not the benefit as well in my opinion.
Image

User avatar
imkingdavid
Registered User
Posts: 1050
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:06 pm

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by imkingdavid » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:36 pm

If I am understanding properly, the main arguments for flat out removing subSilver2 in 3.1 are that:
1. It does not support AJAX functionality - So it continues to act as it currently does. Yes that is boring, but it is not lacking functionality; it is just serving the functionality the "old way".
2. It requires added "fake" imageset code - This is perhaps a stronger argument, but I don't think that simply removing the style from the core package will allow us to remove the fake imageset code. Anyone who would like to maintain that style will still rely on that code to make the style work.
3. There is a proSilver-based replacement that looks identical but incorporates all of the new, "modern" features, such as AJAX - On this subject, I think we'll find that people will try out subSilver2 in 3.1 and realize that it does not act the same way proSilver does (AJAX, et al), but they will see other boards with subSilver3 that does act like that, and then they'll wonder why two boards with the "same" style don't work the same. Then they'll figure out that it's really just a look-alike style and go install that instead. In the long run, I'm sure this will contribute toward phasing out subSilver2. Especially when people start saying "Why do you guys package a style in the core that doesn't have all the modern features when there's a look-alike that does?", that will give us even more of an excuse to remove it, as they are the ones asking for it.

So in my opinion, we should continue with the decision that was already made. In other words, do not ship subSilver2 with the core package, but maintain it as an official style in 3.1. We then drop it completely for 3.2, but allow the community the opportunity to maintain it themselves, should they so desire.

EDIT: I know there was some suggestion somewhere about replacing subSilver2 with subSilver3 in the core package, rather than just dropping it altogether. Two things:
1. subSilver3 is based on prosilver; it doesn't make sense to me to have two official prosilver-based styles
2. We should be moving toward only having one core style, IMO.
I do custom MODs. PM for a quote!
View My: MODs | Portfolio
Please do NOT contact for support via PM or email.
Remember, the enemy's gate is down.

User avatar
rxu
Registered User
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by rxu » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:58 pm

imkingdavid wrote:subSilver3 is based on prosilver; it doesn't make sense to me to have two official prosilver-based styles
As for subsulver3:
This is the original prosilver style modified using css only.
So, it just inherits prosilver's template, which make even less sense to include it within the package.
Image

User avatar
DarkBeing
Registered User
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:32 pm
Location: Currently Estonia
Contact:

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by DarkBeing » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:57 pm

nickvergessen wrote:Arty and you are forgetting one major factor - user's wish.

Did you ever ask user's why they don't update their board? I think with complete abandonment of subsilver2, you will not force the users to switch to prosilver. You will force them to stay on the old version and that is not, what we developers and phpbb community want.

That is also one reason why we decided to still maintain the package but dont include it into the core install package anymore. We can satisfy old users, because we still have updates for them, and new users are not pushed to subsilver2, because it is not available by default anymore.
Interesting thought, but what will be any different in 3.2 compared to now. The same users then will be the same user now which are on subsilver2 and probably will expect you to continue to provide support for it as an official style simply because it has been there for so long. Had it been not added to phpBB3 at all, we would not even be having this debate, but that decision was made back then, so here we are.

keith10456
Registered User
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by keith10456 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:24 pm

DarkBeing wrote:
nickvergessen wrote:Arty and you are forgetting one major factor - user's wish.

Did you ever ask user's why they don't update their board? I think with complete abandonment of subsilver2, you will not force the users to switch to prosilver. You will force them to stay on the old version and that is not, what we developers and phpbb community want.

That is also one reason why we decided to still maintain the package but dont include it into the core install package anymore. We can satisfy old users, because we still have updates for them, and new users are not pushed to subsilver2, because it is not available by default anymore.
Interesting thought, but what will be any different in 3.2 compared to now. The same users then will be the same user now which are on subsilver2 and probably will expect you to continue to provide support for it as an official style simply because it has been there for so long. Had it been not added to phpBB3 at all, we would not even be having this debate, but that decision was made back then, so here we are.
@ DarkBeing - Good point ;)

User avatar
Pony99CA
Registered User
Posts: 986
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:35 am
Location: Hollister, CA
Contact:

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by Pony99CA » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:34 pm

rxu wrote:I think such a poll should be going on .com support board barely because of lack of end-users on development board here.
Agreed.

That's also why I proposed an RFC process change, where requirements gathering and functional design would be done there, too. :D

Steve
Silicon Valley Pocket PC (http://www.svpocketpc.com)
Creator of manage_bots and spoof_user (ask me)
Need hosting for a small forum with full cPanel & MySQL access? Contact me or PM me.

Oleg
Posts: 1150
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:38 am
Contact:

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by Oleg » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:26 am

The main arguments for keeping subsilver were ease of its modification by some board admins, its lighter weight compared to prosilver (and now with ajax prosilver is even heavier) and possibly the fact that some people simply liked its look/feel better. These reasons apply today as much as they did two years ago.

Personally I like having two completely independent styles. If anything I would like to see a mobile style developed before dropping subsilver. I am unaware of any third-party styles that are not based on either subsilver or prosilver.

KnocksX
Registered User
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:03 am

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by KnocksX » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:07 am

There is no reason for an open-source project to cater to users who are attached to outdated software. Commercial companies do it because those users are often the less tech savvy customers who also tend to be more profitable. But as far as subsilver2 is concerened, this cord that should have been cut a long time ago. Deprecate or not deprecate, it belongs in the museum.

User avatar
rxu
Registered User
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Removal of subsilver2 in 3.1

Post by rxu » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:29 am

KnocksX, to be honest, there's no actual reason why you could call subsilver2 outdated. Technically it is not outdated, it just uses uses tabular markup, which is not outdated (see HTML5 specs).
As for its design, this is up to the users taste, so we can't judge it such peremptorily.
Thus, outdating of subsilver2 is not really the reason to remove it, imho.
Image

Post Reply