[RFC|Rejected] Removal of subsilver2

These RFCs were either rejected or have been replaced by an alternative proposal. They will not be included in phpBB.
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DavidIQ
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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by DavidIQ » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:39 pm

DarkBeing wrote:
But if it's not officially supported the same thing will happen that is happening with phpBB2 now: if a topic is started with a question about ss2 it will be immediately closed because ss2 isn't supported. Members who are willing to help won't get a chance to.
Where did you read that? Why should the phpbb team close a topic about a style that community members release and support? Members have already stated that they will continue to support the style on the phpbb forums. If one member or a group goes ahead, releases SS2 and submits it to the style database, why should anyone close the support topic for that style? We are talking about a style and not the software package. But maybe a team member could give a definitiv answer to this. In short make it a comunity project for example, if the way that style is coded is that important for some users.
Yeah I'm not sure where that came from either. We wouldn't refuse support for using a non-standard style. We have hundreds of styles currently available and we try and provide support as best we can. Now...if you have the current subsilver2 that works on 3.0.x installed on a 3.1.x board then that would be pretty impossible to support and I could see why a Support Team member might close out such a topic.
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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by marian0810 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:55 pm

DavidIQ wrote:Yeah I'm not sure where that came from either.
Experience with phpBB2 I guess. I was just assuming that your definition of 'not supported' had not changed :? So now I'm confused, if you're not going to refuse support then surely that means it IS supported :?:
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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by DavidIQ » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:11 pm

First of all a 3.1.x version of SS2 does not exist so someone would have to create it as a custom style to begin with. Second of all once someone creates such a style then why would we deny someone support because they're using a custom style? If that was the case we wouldn't provide support to 95% of our userbase (yes, that's a made up number but a generous estimate to illustrate how many are likely to stick to base). If the support query is specifically about the style then they would likely be directed at the style's support area, as the Support Team generally does now anyways.
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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by Ger » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:13 pm

As stated in another topic, there is a difference between giving support and allowing support. Besides that, giving support in a topic to a user with a problem is completely different from supporting something in a standard package and providing code changes.
Above message may contain errors in grammar, spelling or wrongly chosen words. This is because I'm not a native speaker. My apologies in advance.

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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by marian0810 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:21 pm

DavidIQ wrote:why would we deny someone support
Because you announced you wouldn't support it anymore? Maybe it's my English but I don't understand the difference between not supporting and refusing support. The way I understood it is that you're going to refuse support in the future for any style that is table based like ss2 :?
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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by Ger » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:36 pm

Have you read my reply just above your last post?
Above message may contain errors in grammar, spelling or wrongly chosen words. This is because I'm not a native speaker. My apologies in advance.

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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by marian0810 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:47 pm

Ger wrote:There is a difference between giving support and allowing support.
Apparently not for phpBB2, I just don't get why is this any different.
Besides that, giving support in a topic to a user with a problem is completely different from supporting something in a standard package and providing code changes.
I think they're more like two sides of the same coin... :?
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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by bolverk » Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:45 pm

DavidIQ wrote:Yeah I'm not sure where that came from either. We wouldn't refuse support for using a non-standard style. We have hundreds of styles currently available and we try and provide support as best we can.
I think the missing word here is "official" in regard to support. Currently you (Support Team/Styles Support Team members) are required by your own internal policies to support the Prosilver and Subsilver styles as they are your own code. Meaning you must make every attempt to support users with questions regarding them. Third party custom styles are not required to be officially supported by support staff because they are typically modified versions of your officially supported styles as as such you may or may not be familiar with the code structure. Your teams do make an effort to support those styles as time allows but the more heavily modified the style (and thus the more unfamiliar support staff are with the coding) the more likely they are to refer you to the style author for support. When Subsilver gets dropped as an official style and perhaps a third party ports it to 3.1 it will be just another third party custom style that you are not required to support. The fact that it will be a style that phpBB does not author or maintain will mean your teams familiarity with it will be even less than exists today. A best effort approach (by the teams) to provide support for a 3.1 version of SS that you did not author can be expected to yield even more unanswered style based support topics than exist today. While "refuse" might be the wrong term, no longer being required to provide support for the style will return a similar result. :)
DarkBeing wrote:
bolverk wrote:.......
What surprises me is that it apears to me that you do not understand what I wrote. Maybe it is because my mothertongue is not English. If you carefully reread my reply you will notice that I did not „tell“ you anything but gave a suggestion.
Perhaps it is a language issue but I think it still amounts to you stating how you feel and telling/suggesting others need to feel or do the same. SS may be in your past but I've clearly proven that it is not in the past for many other phpBB users.
DarkBeing wrote:Back on topic.
You said it yourself, the inclusion of SS2 was just an inclusion. It was never the default style and no one was „forced“ to use it. People made their decision to use it, knowing this. The team now made the decision to take out the included addon. Would it affect boards owners? You bet, as does every change on the phpBB software. Some more some less.
SS was never an "addon" it was part of the core package and every data point available leads to the conclusion that more people chose to use it than PS. The proposed change will likely impact >50% of the entire phpBB user base negatively and yet that didn't factor into the decision at all.
DarkBeing wrote:If an admin installs a style he knows the risk that that style may not be supported in the next version. Either he looks for another style or updates it by himself. Which is not difficult as the manual style updates are posted on the phpbb forum.
I think you meant to say "If an admin installs a third party style" because there was no risk that SS would not be supported in the next version, until it was proposed in March. ;) The admin also never had to update SS themselves as phpBB maintained the style along with PS so I believe you must be referring to third party styles with your last comment, which is not relevant at all.
DarkBeing wrote:Btw. Talks about prosilvers flaws where already going on before the decission to drop SS2 was made.
Not really. The only talk about improving anything PS related was the poor implementation of style.php, which is not what I am referring to regarding direct PS flaws. The first acknowledgement that any issues with the style itself would be addressed was here. <- A direct result of feedback provided in the feature freeze topic. ;)
DarkBeing wrote:Btw2. Numbers are only a minor fact as most boardowners want a certain look.
:? The definition of "most" is greatest in quantity or the majority so you just proved your own statement wrong. Numbers are everything. :P
DarkBeing wrote:How it is done doesn't matter, being it PS or SS2 based.
How it is done is actually relevant to the users ability to achieve. See my reply here.
Last edited by bolverk on Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by DarkBeing » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

marian0810 wrote:
Ger wrote:There is a difference between giving support and allowing support.
Apparently not for phpBB2, I just don't get why is this any different.
Besides that, giving support in a topic to a user with a problem is completely different from supporting something in a standard package and providing code changes.
I think they're more like two sides of the same coin... :?
As mentioned in another post I am not an native English speaker but will try to explain it as far as I understand it (someone correct me if I am wrong).

Think about phpBB as a car where the style is the way the car looks and the php-files the engine. If you change the door, color or shape it is still the same car and "model". Your car-company supports you with parts and fixes and addons (ground effects :mrgreen: ). But sooner or later as the technology evolves the company creates a new model and after some time drops the support for the old model (phpbb2), concentrating on the new model (phpbb3) to improve it.

The difference between no official support of phpbb2 and community support for SS2 is that phpBB2 represents the old model (the old engine) which has been dropped and SS2 which is just another set of doors for the current model aka phpBB3.

Just because a private tuner company (webdesigner/community) takes over the design for a certain door style of the current model, does not mean that support will not be given for the whole car :mrgreen: .

I know my example is not flawless but i hope it helped a little bit.

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Re: [RFC|Accepted] Removal of subsilver2

Post by bolverk » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:47 pm

DarkBeing wrote:but will try to explain it as far as I understand it (someone correct me if I am wrong).
Ok, since you did ask. :P
What I think you do not understand is that if a user's problem with phpBB is determined to be related to a third party style the phpBB support staff are not required to provide support to help fix it. They can choose to try and help but there is nothing compelling them to do so and they will typically pass you off to the style author. It's like when you install aftermarket (equivalent to third party styles/mods) parts on your automobile (your board), the part causes your automobile to break which then in turn voids your automobile warranty from the manufacturer (in this case phpBB.com) :)

btw, I replied to your previous post above in an effort not to bump needlessly.

edit: corrected typo Than -> They
Last edited by bolverk on Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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