Remove "Delete all board cookies"

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Louis7777
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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by Louis7777 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:17 pm

@DavidIQ here's a list of arguments :) :
  1. It is a long link and verbose. Probably ridiculously verbose (and difficult to make an exact translation of it) in other languages?
  2. It steals some of the visibility of the other footer links. And there are limited link slots till everything disappears inside the hamburger menu. Wouldn't it be nice if there was always enough room to have "Contact us" be visible?
  3. It is the only link that doesn't take you to an informational or useful page, and the only one that visitors don't care about clicking. Members will care to click it hoping it will fix their problem, but guests will most likely abandon the site if it doesn't work for them. The attention span on the Internet is very short.
  4. It is a link that is rarely used, if ever. And it appears on every page.
  5. It is a link that I (agreed, that is completely subjective) have never seen in any non-phpBB website. My users (guests and members) have always been unfamiliar with it, except for those familiar with phpBB.
  6. Users are not supposed to know what cookies are and why they would need to delete them. According to Nielsen's heuristics, "the system should speak the user's language, with words, phrases and concepts familiar to the user, rather than system-oriented terms" and "it is better if the system can be used without documentation". I've added that last bit because I'm sure that someone would say that "the explanation is in the FAQ".

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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by Pony99CA » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:37 am

Louis7777 wrote:@DavidIQ here's a list of arguments :) :
  1. It is a long link and verbose. Probably ridiculously verbose (and difficult to make an exact translation of it) in other languages?
  2. It steals some of the visibility of the other footer links. And there are limited link slots till everything disappears inside the hamburger menu. Wouldn't it be nice if there was always enough room to have "Contact us" be visible?
  3. It is the only link that doesn't take you to an informational or useful page, and the only one that visitors don't care about clicking. Members will care to click it hoping it will fix their problem, but guests will most likely abandon the site if it doesn't work for them. The attention span on the Internet is very short.
  4. It is a link that is rarely used, if ever. And it appears on every page.
  5. It is a link that I (agreed, that is completely subjective) have never seen in any non-phpBB website. My users (guests and members) have always been unfamiliar with it, except for those familiar with phpBB.
  6. Users are not supposed to know what cookies are and why they would need to delete them. According to Nielsen's heuristics, "the system should speak the user's language, with words, phrases and concepts familiar to the user, rather than system-oriented terms" and "it is better if the system can be used without documentation". I've added that last bit because I'm sure that someone would say that "the explanation is in the FAQ".
  1. Shorten it to "Delete board cookies" or even "Delete cookies". But verbosity isn't necessarily a bad thing if it conveys meaning; only unnecessary verbosity is bad.
  2. Footer links are in the footer because we don't want them to have much visibility. If you think that some of the footer links are more important than others (which I do), put them on separate lines.
  3. I addressed this by saying to make it a button.
  4. See #2. Most footer links are probably rarely used, which is why they're in the footer.
  5. Unless that proves that it's not necessary at all, it's an irrelevant argument.
  6. In the European Union, there's a cookie law, so users are supposed to know what they are. Plus, if you think "cookies" is too technical, you'd have to make the link/button more verbose to explain what it does.
Make like "Frozen" and "let it go, let it go." :D

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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by Louis7777 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:37 am

Pony99CA wrote:
  1. Shorten it to "Delete board cookies" or even "Delete cookies". But verbosity isn't necessarily a bad thing if it conveys meaning; only unnecessary verbosity is bad.
  2. Footer links are in the footer because we don't want them to have much visibility. If you think that some of the footer links are more important than others (which I do), put them on separate lines.
  3. I addressed this by saying to make it a button.
  4. See #2. Most footer links are probably rarely used, which is why they're in the footer.
  5. Unless that proves that it's not necessary at all, it's an irrelevant argument.
  6. In the European Union, there's a cookie law, so users are supposed to know what they are. Plus, if you think "cookies" is too technical, you'd have to make the link/button more verbose to explain what it does.
  1. Unfortunately the shorter versions don't explain as well what it does, because unfortunately it is a 'technical' link. You can see how verbosity is a bad thing when most websites - especially top ones - try to have all of their links be up to two words. At least for menus and navigation in their english versions. Verbose links may be excused in the context of an article.
  2. No, that is not true. They are in the footer, not because we don't want them to have much visibility, but because the links at the header have a higher priority and the header's space is limited to a line which is expected to host links from extensions. You can see how "The team" and "Members" have their place also in the header in the quick links menu.
  3. Have you ever seen - anywhere - a button that deletes cookies? Like I said, guests will most likely abandon the site if it doesn't work for them. The attention span on the Internet is very short. They won't click on any link or button to fix their problem, unless they are familiar with phpBB.
  4. Also see #2. And there's a huge difference between rarely and almost never. If ever.
  5. That proves (or is trying to prove) that all non-phpBB websites do the job without it and because such link is so rare, visitors are not expected to know what it does unless they are familiar with phpBB. Seems like a big deal to me - not irrelevant.
  6. Users want to see the content and they don't give a dime about legal nonsense. They simply click the 'x' or 'ok' button on YouTube and other websites to make that annoying notice to go away.

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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by Pony99CA » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:17 am

Louis7777 wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:
  1. Shorten it to "Delete board cookies" or even "Delete cookies". But verbosity isn't necessarily a bad thing if it conveys meaning; only unnecessary verbosity is bad.
  1. Unfortunately the shorter versions don't explain as well what it does, because unfortunately it is a 'technical' link. You can see how verbosity is a bad thing when most websites - especially top ones - try to have all of their links be up to two words. At least for menus and navigation in their english versions. Verbose links may be excused in the context of an article.
If you really don't think that "Delete board cookies" is equivalent to "Delete all board cookies", then I don't see much point trying to discuss anything else in this topic with you. "Delete board cookies" certainly implies that all of the board's cookies will be deleted, but you're choosing not to see/admit that because you want your solution, despite the fact that not one person in these three pages has agreed with your suggestion.

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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by Louis7777 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:01 am

Pony99CA wrote: If you really don't think that "Delete board cookies" is equivalent to "Delete all board cookies", then I don't see much point trying to discuss anything else in this topic with you. "Delete board cookies" certainly implies that all of the board's cookies will be deleted, but you're choosing not to see/admit that because you want your solution, despite the fact that not one person in these three pages has agreed with your suggestion.
If that is all that you can comment, I assume that you are simply unable to present any other arguments. Otherwise please try to reply to each one of my points.

You're hanging from such a little detail in the conversation and use it against my entire opinion on the matter. And "these three pages" mainly consist of me, you and DavidIQ and I haven't seen anyone disagreeing with the removal of the link or anyone else not agreeing with my statements.

But if you want to focus on the little details, alright. Yes, I really don't think that "Delete board cookies" is equivalent to "Delete all board cookies" and those responsible for the link probably were thinking the same. I'm sure that it crossed their mind to not use the "all", don't you think so too? However, if you are familiar with phpBB then you can say that they are equivalent to you.

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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by leschek » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:23 am

Pony99CA wrote:In the European Union, there's a cookie law, so users are supposed to know what they are. Plus, if you think "cookies" is too technical, you'd have to make the link/button more verbose to explain what it does.
I was searching some information about cookie law in Czech Republic and found interesting "Research into consumer understanding and management of internet cookies..." from 2011 in UK.
document linked above wrote:Respondents recognised that they had limited knowledge and understanding of internet cookies: only 13% of respondents indicated that they fully understand how internet cookies work and 45% indicated that they had some understanding of them. In contrast, 37% had heard of internet cookies but did not understand how they work and 2% of people had not heard of internet cookies before participating in the survey.

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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by Pony99CA » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:07 am

Louis7777 wrote:
Pony99CA wrote: If you really don't think that "Delete board cookies" is equivalent to "Delete all board cookies", then I don't see much point trying to discuss anything else in this topic with you. "Delete board cookies" certainly implies that all of the board's cookies will be deleted, but you're choosing not to see/admit that because you want your solution, despite the fact that not one person in these three pages has agreed with your suggestion.
If that is all that you can comment, I assume that you are simply unable to present any other arguments. Otherwise please try to reply to each one of my points.
I did reply to each of your points originally. Your responses to mine were weak (in my opinion) and exemplified by the point that I mentioned. Combine that with a lack of time and interest debating such a minor tweak with you further and you got as much as I was willing to give on the second go-around.

And, while you may view that as a minor point, I view it as a significant gap. If we can't agree that "Delete board cookies" means "Delete all board cookies" (I'm not sure what else it could mean), then how likely are we to agree on more complicated things like what belongs in the page footer? It seems that our two viewpoints are too far apart to yield useful discussion on this issue.

However, as your requested more, I'll give you another example. One of your points was that the link didn't actually "link" to anything and didn't give the user any feedback. I agreed with that part, so I suggested making it a button (users don't always expect buttons to "go" anywhere; they just expect something to happen) and giving some feedback (like a "Board cookies deleted" message box). You ignored that the first time that I mentioned it. When I mentioned it again, you asked if I'd ever seen another site have such a button -- basically an irrelevant point (especially as you still want the link -- or button -- to be on some pages, not removed entirely). So, even when I agreed with one of your points and suggested a change, you dismissed that with an irrelevant argument.

While I haven't seen sites with a Delete Cookies button, that doesn't imply that sites don't have problems with cookies. Their support people may just tell people to go into their browsers and delete their cookies (or, if they're nice, list the cookies to delete). phpBB may have realized that as a support issue and provided a link to handle that to save their users and their support staff time. So perhaps other sites lacking the button shows a lack of customer focus.

Or maybe not, but your argument still falls flat. Either the link is necessary, in which case it should be a button (to alleviate your professed concerns) or it's not necessary and should be removed. If it is still necessary, it doesn't hurt to have it on every page (or at least it doesn't hurt very much).

So, again, I don't see much hope for a meeting of the minds with you on this topic.

Steve
Last edited by Pony99CA on Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by Pony99CA » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:11 am

leschek wrote:
Pony99CA wrote:In the European Union, there's a cookie law, so users are supposed to know what they are. Plus, if you think "cookies" is too technical, you'd have to make the link/button more verbose to explain what it does.
I was searching some information about cookie law in Czech Republic and found interesting "Research into consumer understanding and management of internet cookies..." from 2011 in UK.
document linked above wrote:Respondents recognised that they had limited knowledge and understanding of internet cookies: only 13% of respondents indicated that they fully understand how internet cookies work and 45% indicated that they had some understanding of them. In contrast, 37% had heard of internet cookies but did not understand how they work and 2% of people had not heard of internet cookies before participating in the survey.
Thanks for that link. So what I see is that over half of "consumers" have at least some understanding of what cookies are.

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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by Louis7777 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:06 pm

Pony99CA wrote: I did reply to each of your points originally. Your responses to mine were weak (in my opinion) and exemplified by the point that I mentioned. Combine that with a lack of time and interest debating such a minor tweak with you further and you got as much as I was willing to give on the second go-around.
So I'll say it again. If that is all that you can comment, I assume that you are simply unable to present any other arguments. When you enter a debate and shoot your big paragraphs away you should better be prepared to reply to the other person with logical arguments.

Statements like "I replied to you originally" and "I think your responses are weak" don't contribute anything to this discussion. And it seems that for a "minor tweak" you have spent enough time and interest on these pages trying to defend the link, so could you please explain why you think that it is important to have it in general, and why it should be on every page?

You've entered this topic with a negative mindset and I assume with no real interest to discuss:

Code: Select all

"Sorry, but I'm a bit peeved at all of the insignificant tweaks that people are proposing to software that's going live shortly (change this icon color, re-order this menu, etc.). If people can't think of more substantial things, they must think phpBB is almost perfect as-is.

On the other hand, I think that are many substantial changes that phpBB could use, like topics only viewable to the topic starter and staff, a "Can post links" permission, sort by topic creation date view, new profile field types, automatic groups (going to be an official extension at least), etc."
So you enter an RFC topic and pretty much say that there could be better things to discuss and now you blame me for weak responses?

Are you in position to present some logical arguments? Other than "It's at the almost-very-bottom of the board, so I bet very few people even notice it".
Pony99CA wrote: And, while you may view that as a minor point, I view it as a significant gap. If we can't agree that "Delete board cookies" means "Delete all board cookies" (I'm not sure what else it could mean), then how likely are we to agree on more complicated things like what belongs in the page footer? It seems that our two viewpoints are too far apart to yield useful discussion on this issue.
Significant gap. Care to explain the why?

I should remind you that not everyone has english as his main language and not everyone has your own perception of it.

Also, I will repeat it again - do you really think that it didn't cross the mind of those responsible for the link to not use the "all"?

"Delete all board cookies" means to delete all cookies of the board. Whatever a board is. And if you're wondering now "doesn't everyone know what a board is?", I'll tell you that this is not the case. For instance, an exact translation of it doesn't make much sense in my language, in the context of a forum-based website. Which is why the official phpBB greek translation has a totally different word for it.

"Delete board cookies" means to delete cookies that fall into the "board" category. And because it doesn't say "all cookies" I can easily imagine that after I click on it I may be presented with a menu where I can choose which cookies to delete. Perhaps style cookies? Or language cookies? Maybe it will just delete all of them.
Pony99CA wrote: However, as your requested more, I'll give you another example. One of your points was that the link didn't actually "link" to anything and didn't give the user any feedback. I agreed with that part, so I suggested making it a button (users don't always expect buttons to "go" anywhere; they just expect something to happen) and giving some feedback (like a "Board cookies deleted" message box). You ignored that the first time that I mentioned it. When I mentioned it again, you asked if I'd ever seen another site have such a button -- basically an irrelevant point (especially as you still want the link -- or button -- to be on some pages, not removed entirely). So, even when I agreed with one of your points and suggested a change, you dismissed that with an irrelevant argument.
It was in your first post where you simply said that "It's at the almost-very-bottom of the board, so I bet very few people even notice it" and that you wouldn't object to making it a button, without providing any good arguments whatsoever. A button. Cool. Where? Amongst the links? At the same place as the current link is? Don't blame me for ignoring your button idea when you didn't give me much feedback to comment on. And like I previously said, you entered this topic without believing that it was worth of discussion.

If you read again my first posts you'll see that I originally wrote to DavidIQ that no other website has such a link. Then you suggested that the link could become a button and I simply stood by my initial statement. "Delete all board cookies", either in the form of a raw link or in the form of a button, does not appear in any non-phpBB website. At least I have not seen anything like it.
Pony99CA wrote: While I haven't seen sites with a Delete Cookies button, that doesn't imply that sites don't have problems with cookies. Their support people may just tell people to go into their browsers and delete their cookies (or, if they're nice, list the cookies to delete). phpBB may have realized that as a support issue and provided a link to handle that to save their users and their support staff time. So perhaps other sites lacking the button shows a lack of customer focus.
I partially agree. That's probably how the link came to be. But the fact that other sites don't have it doesn't show a lack of customer focus. It most likely means that they can do their job without it.
Pony99CA wrote: Or maybe not, but your argument still falls flat. Either the link is necessary, in which case it should be a button (to alleviate your professed concerns) or it's not necessary and should be removed. If it is still necessary, it doesn't hurt to have it on every page (or at least it doesn't hurt very much).
So it may hurt... a little? I personally like to have my pages as clean as I can, and the little details and tweaks matter a lot to me. Of course I can remove the specific link from my own sites if I want. But since I have an idea (even a minor one) on how phpBB could be better, I'm making it an RFC.

I'm not sure if you fully got it, but my problem is with its existence on every page, especially for guest view.

If the link is necessary on every page then it should stay there as a link.

If it is not necessary on every page - which is what I'd like us to discuss - perhaps we could show it whenever it is needed.

And maybe it is not that necessary and we can do without it. Because it is rarely used, if ever.

Care to help with that? Can you present any arguments on how necessary it is?

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Re: Remove "Delete all board cookies"

Post by Mess » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:45 pm

So much time and energy spent on something so utterly pointless and insignificant...

You both lose.

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