[RFC] This been tested for blind users?

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Danielx64
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[RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by Danielx64 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:09 am

Hello,

Following this post: http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopi ... &t=2122341 I am creating this topic for the devs to talk about.

I'm putting in a sugestion that We go back to using <img /> (with alt="" correctly filled). Now you guy got most of it right with subsilver. It been some time since used that style, but there one thing that I didn't like, the fact that it use tables.

Now I'm not saying that prosilver is crap or anything, it's just you went backward in some areas.

I welcome all comments from anyone works on phpbb and I would like to hear on how you will address the accessibility issue.

Right now, I can't even see the font resize button

Thanks

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Jaftica
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Re: [RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by Jaftica » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:35 pm

Not to be a wise guy or anything, but in most browsers, you can hit the CTRL and while holding it down, hit the + and it will resized the whole page better than the font size button on PhpBB. IMHO of course.

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DavidIQ
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Re: [RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by DavidIQ » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:54 pm

Jaftica wrote:Not to be a wise guy or anything, but in most browsers, you can hit the CTRL and while holding it down, hit the + and it will resized the whole page better than the font size button on PhpBB. IMHO of course.
Blind users are unable to actually see. So suggesting they zoom in won't do anything for them. These users will have a program such as JAWS (screen reader) to be able to navigate through the page using nothing but a keyboard. These programs rely on page element tags to help the blind user navigate through the page.

I am all for improving the usability of phpBB for blind users (can you tell I work with ADA-compliance at my job? :lol: ). This would include adding alt tags to all images and proper use of the <label> tag as well as others (<b> <i> tags are out too).
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Jaftica
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Re: [RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by Jaftica » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:56 pm

Ok, I misunderstood your post. I thought it was for not totally blind users....Now I do understand. I'm with you on this one.

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DavidIQ
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Re: [RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by DavidIQ » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:06 pm

Actually this seems a bit more involved than that. The images the author is talking about are done through css. That might make this all the more difficult. Also the original topic did speak about using the resizing as you suggested, but this is a bit more involved.
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Jaftica
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Re: [RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by Jaftica » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:11 pm

My major concern would be bloat. It appears to be an issue that can be resolved however, as IQ states, big css issues. I was only thinking in the terms of php and html.
Thanks for pointing that out.

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Re: [RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by Danielx64 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:40 am

Jaftica wrote:Ok, I misunderstood your post. I thought it was for not totally blind users....Now I do understand. I'm with you on this one.

I'm not totally blind, just that I got rather low vision. Most of the time I use software such as Zoomtext (http://www.aisquared.com/zoomtext/) or the magnifier That comes in windows 7, however there are times when I need to use the settings as posted in the original thread.

One case is where a computer is running xp or vista and does not have zoomtext installed. The magnifier that comes with xp and vista is useless. Yes I could go and install zoomtext but that can't always be done.

Having said that, I'm speaking up for anyone who use phpbb and use a configuration like the one I posted in the original thread.

The only sad thing is that you may lose the hover (or rollover) looks.

About the text re-size link, when using the config like posted in the original post, you can't see it. It the same as the print and any other buttons that is placed up there.
By disabling images while keeping the style enabled (you can do it in your Firefox preferences, or via Web Developer toolbar), which reproduces the situation of loading issues or disabling images for people having a slow connection or situation like Daniel's, you can reproduce this accessibility issue.

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Re: [RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by Ishimaru Chiaki » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:07 pm

Hello, I'm here to support *Daniel, as I have a bad vision too, even thought mine is less severe than his (I can use Ubuntu with default settings), but my vision might worsen anyway, as I have Leber Congenital Amaurosis that is an evolutive disease.
*Daniel wrote:
Jaftica wrote:Ok, I misunderstood your post. I thought it was for not totally blind users....Now I do understand. I'm with you on this one.

I'm not totally blind, just that I got rather low vision. Most of the time I use software such as Zoomtext (http://www.aisquared.com/zoomtext/) or the magnifier That comes in windows 7, however there are times when I need to use the settings as posted in the original thread.

One case is where a computer is running xp or vista and does not have zoomtext installed. The magnifier that comes with xp and vista is useless. Yes I could go and install zoomtext but that can't always be done.
I have ZoomText's CD too, but my vision isn't low enough to have needed to use it on XP. And now, I'm on Ubuntu and their default font sizes are bigger than Win's font sizes, so I can even use a bigger screen resolution on Linux.

But on your side, you can always use NVDA as alternative when you can't use ZoomText on a friend's Windows desktop. Yes, it's a screen reader for people that are fully blind, but it's free, open source and has a portable version and so, you can bring it everywhere in a USB drive. Here's the official website's link : http://www.nvda-project.org/
Having said that, I'm speaking up for anyone who use phpbb and use a configuration like the one I posted in the original thread.
I agree. In Web development, when it comes to Web accessibility, we often tend to forget that some people with low vision change their settings in order to compensate this and so, some use the "Force a minimal font size" option in Firefox or use a minimal letter spacing. And in Daniel's example, his special settings disable all background images and so, the prosilver buttons get wiped out as they're set as backgrounds. And this is even more incompatible with tweaks for PNGs like the ones I use in my styles. Daniel can test here : http://ishimaru-design.servhome.org/tes ... stylesdemo
The only sad thing is that you may lose the hover (or rollover) looks.
Even if you have to reproduce the rollover effect with JS (not working when JS disabled), the important thing is that the site stays functional. We hear more and more about graceful degradation and progressive enhancement. Twitter is a good example of well-known sites that use this concept.
About the text re-size link, when using the config like posted in the original post, you can't see it. It the same as the print and any other buttons that is placed up there.
By disabling images while keeping the style enabled (you can do it in your Firefox preferences, or via Web Developer toolbar), which reproduces the situation of loading issues or disabling images for people having a slow connection or situation like Daniel's, you can reproduce this accessibility issue.
By the way, Daniel, when I'll have time after I come back from my handiski session, I'll send you a "style for low vision" to test, so I will be able to inform their authors who are Frenchies (...unless you speak French).
phpBB Style author : My phpBB3 styles

Danielx64
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Re: [RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by Danielx64 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:28 am

But on your side, you can always use NVDA as alternative when you can't use ZoomText on a friend's Windows desktop. Yes, it's a screen reader for people that are fully blind, but it's free, open source and has a portable version and so, you can bring it everywhere in a USB drive. Here's the official website's link : http://www.nvda-project.org/
I'm not if you misread my post, or I missed something, I use the magnifier in windows 7, or I use ZoomText on xp or vista computers most of the times. I don't use the reading part as that really annoying for me. (I did try it once, but found it just enough to use the magnification part) Still, thank-you for the link :), I'll pass that to some of my friends who use JAWS and see what they think.

You may want to take a look at mybb and see how they do things. They don't use background images for the inportant stuff like the buttons and so on. However, I think there are flows with how they control their layout - they use tables.

Right now, I'm considering having a go at creating a theme that is the same as prosilver, but it doesn't use background images for the buttons.

PS, is it too late to try and do something about this in phpbb 3.1? I've posted it here because I wasn't sure where to post this.

Ishimaru Chiaki
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Re: [RFC] This been tested for blind users?

Post by Ishimaru Chiaki » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:44 am

Hello Daniel and sorry for not posting earlier. I really enjoyed my handiski session, and tonight, I had to finish my maple stuffed cookies recipe.

Now, here's the topic about the style I mentioned earlier : http://forums.phpbb-fr.com/aide-a-la-cr ... 71354.html
Yes, the topic is in French, but you can find the style zip and the CSS for the ACP, so you can test it. But if you prefer, I can install it on my demo live board.

And about your idea of making a prosilver derivative using <img /> instead of backgrounds, we can work together. Meanwhile, I'll ask QuentinC (a fully blind guy from Alsacréations) in order to know if he's fluent in English, as his experience might be helpful about some stuff we don't always think of, such as keyboard traps (ex: auto submit using the onchange event).

On my side, I also use a Belgian script for which I'm already giving some accessibility advices, such as the <img /> thingie instead of CSS background, adding a skiplink, etc. I cannot claim myself as accessibility expert, I only learned frome documenting myself, but if I enter the AC of my region's association of people with bad vision as planned, maybe I'll consider paying myself a formation.
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